Covid-19 Regulations: Assisted Deaths Abroad

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right on the question of travelling abroad for the purpose of assisted dying. It would be regarded as a reasonable excuse, and therefore anyone who did would not be breaking the law. In answer to the noble Baroness’s question, under Section 2(1) of the Suicide Act 1961, a person does commit an offence if he or she

“does an act capable of encouraging or assisting the suicide or attempted suicide of another person”

and that act

“was intended to encourage or assist suicide or an attempt at suicide.”

The 1961 Act provides no exceptions to the prohibition on assisting suicide. The maximum penalty, as noble Lords may know, is 14 years, and there is nothing in the Coronavirus Act or any recent legislation that in any way changes that.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, whilst the 1961 Act provides no exemptions, as the Minister said, the Director of Public Prosecutions has issued guidance with regard to the avoidance of prosecution in this area. Will the Government ask for that guidance to be looked at again, in the context of the sensitive words of the Secretary of State for Health, to avoid the very situation that has happened in the past where public authorities sought injunctions against family members who supported those who took the very difficult decision to travel abroad? I live in Scotland, where the Suicide Act 1961 has never applied. Will the Government work with the Scottish Government to start collecting data? It was welcome that the Health Secretary indicated the openness of the Government to do that, so we can get a proper understanding of how many people are making the very difficult decision to travel abroad.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Lord is entirely correct; the Director of Public Prosecutions’ policy for prosecutors in respect of cases of encouraging or assisting suicide sets out factors which prosecutors in England and Wales will consider, in addition to those already outlined in the code for Crown Prosecutors when deciding whether it is in the public interest to prosecute in cases of encouraging or assisting suicide. Among the public interest factors tending against prosecution are that the victim had reached a voluntary, clear, settled and informed decision to commit suicide and that the suspect was “wholly motivated by compassion”. I completely take on board the noble Lord’s encouragement of this review. There is no review planned, but we all acknowledge the changing tone of this debate and I will take his suggestion back to the department. On the point about Scotland and data, I acknowledge different circumstances in Scotland and the remarks on the importance of collecting data from my noble friend in the other place. That is indeed our intention.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Friday 24th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, since the first coronavirus SI was laid on 27 January, the Government have laid a total of 510 SIs covering all subjects; 154 of them have been coronavirus related. So if coronavirus-related SIs account for less than a third of all SIs, it is simply not true that there was no time to debate them earlier. Three-quarters of those SIs have breached the 21-day rule to allow for proper parliamentary scrutiny, and 12 came into effect even before they were laid before Parliament, including one this week.

Regulation 3 says that we are still in an emergency period. I will ask the Minister a clear question. If this is not extended next Friday, which under the regulation the Government must decide whether or not to do, how will we approve these SIs during our Recess? Also, if our national emergency for these powers is to be extended next Friday, why on earth are we going on a summer break the day before?

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2020

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 25th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, in his opening remarks, the Minister said that these measures had to be brought forward because of the need for emergency legislation to be rapid and frequent. As my noble friend Lord Scriven pointed out, that had been the case, and this House and Parliament had given the Government a fair degree of forbearance in the use of emergency powers. In our debate on the legislation, I said that such legislation should never normally be needed and that Parliament would never normally pass it—but we did. It should be commensurate that, when emergency legislation is passed, scrutiny and the ability to debate the measures that the Government bring forward are enhanced.

If the Government say that bringing forward these measures needed to be rapid and frequent, that cannot be said about the procedures in this House. With remote working and hybrid working, we could meet for many hours every day. There has been no limit at all on the Government bringing these measures forward sooner. The Minister says that he does so to afford scrutiny but scrutiny of what the Government are doing is impossible if it comes after the event. That includes this ridiculous situation where we are debating, in one debate, two measures that counteract one another.

On science, which has already been mentioned, I agree entirely with the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft. It has been reported that a communications company that has been carrying out the advice and the Government’s work was recently issued a contract to do the same for the Brexit preparations after next January. Will the Government publish all the data that has been secured from that communications company from polling and focus groups, under the principles of open data, so that we are aware?

Finally, I understand the approach for devolution, which I am passionate about, but the science cannot say one thing for Northumberland and another for the Scottish Borders. What is the Government’s advice for those who live and work across the border? Should they take the advice on where they work or on where they live, at the destination or at the source point? Clarity on that point would be gratefully received.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right. It is incredibly tough to persuade people to wear their masks. There is a huge cultural gap. That reason and the insights of our behavioural scientists have led us to move relatively slowly, despite the articulate and passionate exhortations we have had on this subject. We are looking at ways to encourage mask wearing, but it is a struggle and not one that we think that we can necessarily rely on.

On non-essential retail, in response to my noble friend Lady Anelay, I say that I have recently met the Association of Medical Research Charities and I acknowledge the pressures faced by good causes supported by charity shops. The Prime Minister announced a timeline for the reopening of non-essential retail businesses on 25 May. I hope very much that that can bring some relief to that important sector.

We completely understand the impact of the lockdown on the hospitality industry and, as the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, alluded to, garden parties. That is why I am pleased that, following the Prime Minister’s announcement, significant parts of the hospitality and tourism industry will reopen from 4 July. However, to make sure that this is done in as safe a way as possible, all hospitality indoors will be limited to table service. Our guidance will encourage minimal staff and customer contact.

The regulations made on 12 June permitted the use of places of worship for individual prayer. Following the Prime Minister’s announcement on Tuesday, this will be relaxed further and places of worship will be permitted to be open more generally. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, I say that this will be a welcome change for those who have been unable to use places of worship for their usual religious practice, and I thank those who have made sacrifices.

In response to my noble friend Lord Naseby, I say that here is no avoiding the fact that singing spreads an aerosol of virus-laden moisture into the air. On cricket, in the words of the Prime Minister, it is plain to everyone that the cricket ball is an infectious vector of disease spreading. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Clark, that we will not hesitate, in the face of a local spike, to bring back whatever lockdown measures are required to save lives and protect the NHS.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked about progress on vaccine development. I am delighted that the UK is taking a leading role in this work. Our best chance of defeating the virus is by working together globally. We have put £84 million into accelerating the work of Oxford University and Imperial College. I pay testament to the work of the scientists there. The noble Baroness also asked about social care; we have set out a comprehensive action plan to support the adult social care sector in England throughout the coronavirus outbreak, including ramping up testing, overhauling the way PPE is delivered to care homes and helping minimise the spread of the virus to keep people safe.

In response to the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Brinton, we cannot avoid the costs of PPE. The global price of PPE has risen dramatically. These costs will have to be borne somehow, somewhere. We are working with Treasury and DH colleagues to figure out ways in which they can be borne.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on shielding, from 6 July those shielding can spend time outdoors in a group of up to six people, including those outside their household. This can be in a public outdoor space or a private garden. Also from 6 July, those shielding will be able to create a support bubble.

I have answers to questions from a number of noble Lords, including on the devolved Administrations, parliamentary scrutiny and local powers. I will not be able to get through all of them in the time remaining. I thank noble Lords for all their contributions and valuable points during this debate. I reassure the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Liddle, that a lessons learned process will be undertaken when the time is right, but we are not through this yet.

These regulations have been hugely successful in tackling the spread of the virus. While recognising some local limitations, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, we are enormously grateful to the public for their sacrifices and to the NHS and social care workers for their hard work on the front line.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

Before the Minister sits down, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, made a very good intervention—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

To clarify the Procedure Committee guidance, as agreed by the House:

“All members participating need to be included on the published Speakers’ List and members are not able to intervene spontaneously during business”.


This is not designed to limit the participation of Members in proceedings. It is under the section headed “Parity of treatment” between those online and those in the Chamber, to ensure that there is no difference in the ability of those online to participate. I hope noble Lords appreciate and understand that.

Covid-19: Mental Health

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Lord is entirely right that the burden on women during an epidemic such as Covid is probably more profound in some instances than on men. Women carry a huge amount of the domestic burden and of the financial concerns for the family. The IFS report puts a spotlight on the huge pressures placed on women. That will be a focus for our study and work.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister said that young people were the Government’s primary concern, but the Government’s waiting times and standards guidance of 2015 said that by 1 April 2016 more than 50% of young people would be treated within two weeks of referral. NHS England’s statistics for 2019 said that only 15% were receiving treatment within zero to four weeks and a shocking 25% were still waiting after 12 months. If this is the record before the crisis, what faith will there be in the Government’s addressing the problem after the crisis? Will the Minister apologise for this record of letting so many vulnerable young people down?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, supporting children and young people’s mental health during and after the pandemic is absolutely a priority. Mental health providers are offering support using digital and remote approaches to continue assessment and treatment during social distancing measures. This is part of the wide range of support that we are providing. The noble Lord is entirely right that this area requires a huge amount of investment; we have committed to making that necessary investment.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I wish to make three points. The first is that these measures were made on 12 May; there was a debate in this House on 12 May on the first set of measures, which the Minister referred to, but not in the context of measures brought before Parliament to offer scrutiny, but of reflecting what the Prime Minister had said in a Statement. Why the Government were not able to bring forward the measures which were made—and we were debating the original ones—is beyond me. I hope the Minister will be able to explain.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, my noble friend Lady Jolly, and others across the House, including myself, would have been alarmed to hear the Minister glorying in the flexibility of the British constitution to afford this Government the ability to, in effect, bypass proper parliamentary scrutiny. Parliament gave the Government considerable powers with this emergency legislation, and when Parliament does so, the Government should consider that gravely and afford much greater ability to Parliament to scrutinise those measures; they have not done so. I hope we will never again hear the Minister glory in the flexibility of the constitution to do that.

Secondly, in his speech on 12 May, the Minister said that

“the regulations reflect the strategy that we have agreed across the UK, which is led by the best scientific evidence”.—[Official Report, 12/5/20; col. 599.]

As I pointed out in last week’s debate on masks, there is growing inconsistency north and south of the border. For someone such as myself on the border and for the community I represented when I was elected, this is a major concern. As the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said—and I agree with him entirely—there is the limited explanation of what the law is; then there is the greater element of what ministerial guidance is; and you now have a third category of ministerial requests to be made regarding the action of the people. But there is a great deal of confusion. Today, if you cross the border into Scotland at Carter Bar on the A68, you will see a huge electronic neon screen saying: “Stay home. Save the NHS.”

This inconsistency brings me to my third point. People did trust their Government at times of crisis. But after the Dominic Cummings affair and confused messages from the Government, that trust has plummeted. It is vital that trust is maintained so that we avoid a second wave. The OECD has put in stark terms the economic dangers this country faces if we enter a second wave. We are already third behind Trump’s Administration and Bolsonaro’s Brazil. That is not a triumvirate I am proud of or that this country should be proud of. To avoid a second wave, trust must be regained, and this kind of activity from the Government with these kinds of measures is not conducive to rebuilding that trust.

Covid-19: Masks

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 11th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, this debate, as well as the one introduced last week by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the one earlier this afternoon are really opening this House to ridicule, with the lack of ability for us to debate some of these important issues properly.

I live in the Scottish Borders and from next week we will begin to see people again travelling across the border frequently or every day on public transport for retail purposes or for business or securing public services. From next week, those people will also have an unacceptable level of uncertainty over the guidance, legal requirements or ministerial requests on the use of face coverings if they are under 60 or medical face masks if they are over 60. Therefore, I want to ask the Minister a very specific question. Next week, what will be the law—not guidance or ministerial requests—for those crossing the border on public transport to secure public services without being able to socially distance and for those carrying out business activities?

National Health Service Commissioning Board and Clinical Commissioning Groups (Responsibilities and Standing Rules) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness and I support her very powerful plea. I also support the Motion, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for bringing it forward.

Before I address the Motion, I want to make a remark about participating physically in the Chamber. I have no inherited wealth, nor do I come from a political family. I do not live on a pension and I am not a salaried Member. I live in Scotland. I and others with a similar background continue to receive no support for staying in London if we participate physically in the Chamber. Meanwhile, salaried Ministers, the Lord Speaker, the Senior Deputy Speaker, the Labour Leader and the Chief Whip have continued to receive support for living in London since 21 April, when it was stopped for all other Members. This House should not just be for the rich, the retired or those who live in London. The Deputy Speaker said that in this debate all Members were equal. Well, the system adopted by the House administration and the commission should afford us equality, too.

I support the call for a long-term plan, for the very powerful reasons given by my noble friend Lady Jolly. The way in which our country has not supported our care home sector during this crisis has been shocking—north and south of the border. In Scotland, on 31 May the chairman and founder of the Balhousie Care Group, which operates 26 homes with 940 residents, wrote in the Herald that there had been:

“Three months of mixed messages, mismanagement and missed opportunities”


—that is, north of the border. On 21 May, the Health Secretary, Jeane Freeman, said that more than 900 patients had been released from hospitals into Scotland’s care homes. That was three times the number that the Scottish Government had said was the reality only weeks before. They were sent to care homes with no testing but only a risk assessment, and, depending on that assessment, with only seven days’ isolation. By then, 1,749 people in Scotland’s care homes had lost their lives to Covid-19.

In England, I read with a breaking heart the soul-destroying evidence to the Commons Health and Social Care Committee in which a comparison was made of how England and Wales and Germany had approached the issue. Isabell Halletz, chief executive of the German care homes employers’ association, gave the stark comparison of 12,500 deaths in England and Wales and 3,000 deaths in Germany, with patients in Germany not being able to go into a care home unless they had tested negative or had gone into isolation or quarantine for 14 days in separate institutions. She also gave a figure which should always be borne in mind when we clap what we term our “heroes working”. She said that Germany has nearly 1.1 million people working in the long-term care sector. Of those, how many have tragically died? The answer is just 42, which compares starkly with the record in England and Wales.

If we are to learn serious lessons about this crisis, we have to make sure that we do not forget that other countries have performed better. We should learn from them how they have handled this crisis.

Coronavirus Bill

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard - continued) & 2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I commend both the Minister for the way he introduced the debate and the responding speeches from the Front Benches.

Any Member who speaks from the well of this Chamber does so on wooden floorboards that were put in place to repair the Chamber after an unexploded bomb from the Luftwaffe fell 80 years ago. Our response to that crisis as a Chamber was simply to move; not a day’s sitting was missed and there was no break in proceedings. This emergency will require us to carry on with our parliamentary duties differently, rather than simply moving. It will mean us perhaps carrying out our roles of scrutiny and oversight through different means when we come back after the Easter Recess.

I agree with my noble friends Lord Scriven and Lord Alderdice that this is not a war that we are engaged in but a health and, by association, economic emergency. The Minister is right that some elements of crisis response are necessary. This legislation is the kind that no Parliament would ever wish to consider; in general circumstances, no Parliament would ever pass it. The powers in it are ones that our police, public services and local authorities should never have and that many of them would never want, but what is facing our country requires such measures. In passing them, we should not abrogate our responsibility to consider them in detail; sometimes that consideration is about asking pointed questions. It means that government still must be accountable to the people who will undergo many restrictions on their normal way of life.

The unsaid areas in the Prime Minister’s address to the country last night have been responded to by Ministers throughout the day. That is welcome. Further clarity is needed for people who need to travel to work in the areas of retail that are exceptions to the closures, and for people in the professions or in the circumstances that noble Lords have mentioned, insufficient information has been provided—but it is coming piece by piece. That is welcome.

After the immediacy of what we are doing in this legislation, there will need to be sober reflection. As I referred to earlier, I saw this approach abroad. Over the past three weeks, I have been in the Gulf, the Middle East and Africa. It was clear that the three regions I visited struggled at times to understand some of the UK Government’s messages during the response. I welcome the greater clarity that is now emerging, which will be underpinned by statute.

I am the very proud son of an NHS ambulance driver who retired a few years ago after 30 years of service. Our nation is proud of our recently retired health workers who are returning to service, as well as of our police workers, transport workers, retail workers who are working in the shops and premises that we will need to remain open, and adult care and health workers. They are the very backbone of our response to this emergency; they and their families need to be supported going forward.

The House will know that I live in Scotland and represented a border constituency when I was a Member of the Scottish Parliament. My following comments therefore relate to this issue. Many thousands of people who live and work across the border will see an emergency response from two Governments, underpinned by legislation from two Parliaments. Can the Minister reassure the people who live and work continuously over the border, in the agricultural sector and in the public services, that UK Ministers will work hand in glove with Scottish Ministers and those from the Welsh and Northern Ireland authorities?

The competences in many aspects of this legislation are devolved competences. It is the convention of this House, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and other noble Lords, have said, that we respect the devolution settlement, but equally, the necessity for close working and understanding that there will be times when legislation is required to be consistent across the border is welcome.

Can the Minister, if not today then in writing, answer some detailed questions. In Clause 83, there is a duty on the Secretary of State to make reports at two-monthly intervals on the interaction of devolved areas. Is the expectation that this would be the same from Scottish Ministers with regards to the implementation of those powers? It has been referenced before; the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, mentioned Clauses 32 and 33, regarding the suspension of disclosure requirements in Scotland. How will this interact with members of the public services across the different borders? How does this Bill interact with the Public Health etc. (Scotland) Act 2008, which includes quarantine, detention, medical examination and other powers for local authorities and health boards? How do the Government intend this interaction to operate?

There are two areas within Schedule 20 in which there are criminal offences regarding sanctions, and then the separate aspect of the notifications of infected areas. Will that definition of “infected areas” be identical north and south of the border, and if any offences under the Bill are committed north and south of the border, will they have different penalties? Can the Minister explain this?

As I said earlier, I have observed from other countries the UK’s response over the last three weeks. I want to put on record the support that I received from the Spanish embassy, through a colleague who was a British resident but a Spanish citizen, working with British authorities and officials. The Minister was previously slightly upset at my question. The Spanish deputy ambassador to the country that I was in, Alfonso Herrero Corral, gave the epitome of what sort of support one should receive from one’s Government: the information was clear, accurate and up to date.

This emergency will have major consequences. I very much hope that while we naturally look to our own citizens, providing services for our vulnerable until we get our economy back on track, we do not become insular. This country can manage a crisis better than many others around the world. I hope that we will still be global citizens of high honour, supporting other nations which, even at this moment of emergency in the UK, are more vulnerable than us.

NHS: Brexit-related Risks

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am glad that the noble Lord’s train got him here in time for him to ask his Question. First, I do not share his pessimism about the outcome. We will publish the White Paper on our proposals next week and we expect it to get a warm welcome—and not just in this House. Nevertheless, it would be wrong if we were not working on contingency options. I think that the public would be surprised if we were not planning for every scenario. That is precisely what we are doing at the moment, and of course, as we do that, patient safety is our number one priority. We need to make sure that the supply of medicines and medical devices can come in to the country and be used by NHS patients, come what may.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the son of an ambulance driver who drove ambulances for the NHS for nearly half of its existence. Some 45 million packs of patients’ medicines are exported from the UK every year, and 37 million are imported into the UK every month. Merck, GSK and AstraZeneca have all forecast that if we leave the customs union, it could take five to 10 years for any technological solutions to replace the system we have at the moment. They are now considering stockpiling, given the levels of extra documentation and checks that will be required. This will place an increased burden on the NHS. Would not the best thing for the NHS be if the Cabinet tomorrow agreed that we will continue as part of the European Medicines Agency and the customs union? Given that the Minister has been on his feet so much this morning, the simple answer “yes” will suffice.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

It might have to be a simple “no”.