Industrial Strategy Consultation

Debate between Lord Prior of Brampton and Lord Stoddart of Swindon

Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, that is a very good question. My own view is that it is one of the great, long-term, sustainable, competitive advantages we have. When John Kenneth Galbraith went to India in 1948 to give advice on setting up a pharmaceutical industry there, he was asked, “How do we do it?”. He replied, “Build a university and wait for 200 years”. There is some truth in that. We have some great universities here, which are a source of huge, long-term, competitive strength.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, there may be nothing magical about industrial strategy, but it is important that that strategy is not obstructed by bureaucracy. I hope that we can be assured that there will be no bureaucratic obstruction of the plans.

To return to the question of electricity, if we are to have a successful strategy, it is essential to have cheap electricity for industry. At the moment, we are faced with the building of a power station at Hinkley Point, which will charge £95 per megawatt, and the Swansea Bay scheme, which will cost £90 per megawatt. What will the Government do to ensure that these prices do not affect industrial ability?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I hope that I can assure the noble Lord that we will not obstruct—or rather, we will try not to obstruct—the industrial strategy. I am reminded of that old lie, “I’m from the Government—I’m here to help you”. I keep in mind that we will try not to build in too much bureaucracy. We have an ambition to reduce the cost of red tape by £10 billion over the course of this Parliament. Of course, electricity prices are critically important, particularly to industries such as the steel industry and indeed to all energy-intensive industries, so that will be very much part of the industrial strategy, as it emerges over the next three months.

Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Prior of Brampton and Lord Stoddart of Swindon

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know whether to thank my noble friend Lord Ridley for bringing this debate here today or not. The arguments that have been put have been very powerful and it would be obtuse of me to say otherwise.

Perhaps I can start by going back to the opening words of my noble friend Lord Ridley, who said that there are three ways of trying to influence the behaviour of people doing things that do harm: you can punish them; you can hector them; or you can try to offer safer alternatives. In the article he wrote in the Times some time ago, he used the example of methadone as something that is not desirable in itself but is used as a means of treating people with heroin addiction.

In the case of tobacco we have tried all three things. We have penalised people through taxation, we have hectored them incessantly for years, and having tried nicotine replacement therapies, in a sense vaping is a way of encouraging people to use something that is considerably less harmful than smoking. Actually, most people would agree that we have been hugely successful in reducing the consumption of tobacco in England. I was asked for a statement of the Government’s view on vaping; I think I can say unequivocally that we are in favour of it as a means for people to come off smoking cigarettes. There is absolutely no question about that. The reports produced by Public Health England and most recently and very powerfully by the Royal College of Physicians entirely endorse that view. The president of the Royal College of Physicians, Professor Jane Dacre, said in response to the report:

“With careful management and proportionate regulation, harm reduction provides an opportunity to improve the lives of millions of people”.

I pick that out because she used the words “proportionate regulation”, and that is really what we are discussing today. It is not about whether we are in favour of vaping or not, it is about what kind of regulation should be around it.

On the European element, given that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, could not resist throwing that in as one of his questions, I am not sure whether if we had been left to our own devices we might not have come out with something far worse several years ago. The noble Lord was kind enough to mention the original views of PHE and the MHRA, so we may well have brought in a licensing system or even have banned them altogether. I am not sure that one can lay this at the door of Brussels or indeed our own Government. We have been far too quick to resort to regulation in many areas and as a rule I am wholly in sympathy with less regulation. That is the best place to start. What we are discussing today is whether this regulation is proportionate, what damage it could do or what the directive’s unintended consequences might be.

I should just mention while I have it to hand, to put the concerns of my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara to rest, that the concentration which he is taking it at will not be affected. It will not have to be licensed by the MHRA, but sadly I cannot say the same to my noble friend Lord Cathcart, who at 2.4% is higher than 2%, which is the cut-off point for licensing. But I shall come to that in more detail in a minute, if I can.

Perhaps I may pick up on a few of the fears that noble Lords have expressed about the directive and see whether I can allay their minds today. It has been said that the directive will ban flavourings in e-liquids. I should make it clear that it will not do so. What it does say is that flavourings which pose a risk to human health should not be used; we could probably all agree that that is a sensible rule. There is an additive called diacetyl, which I think is also used in the making of popcorn, and there are other flavourings where there is some evidence that airways can be inflamed. The noble Lord appears to be questioning that, but I think the RCP report cites evidence that some flavourings can cause damage.

It has also been said that the directive will ban all advertising and prevent shop owners communicating with their customers. It does not do that. The new rules do not prevent information being provided to customers either online or in physical retail outlets, nor does it ban online forums, independently compiled reviews or blogs. Some advertising will also be allowed, such as point-of-sale, billboards and leaflets, subject to the rules set out in existing advertising codes to ensure that these do not appeal to people aged under 18 or non-users. There will therefore remain a wide range of information on the products available to smokers who wish to buy these products.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I take it that they will not be allowed to advertise on television—am I right about that? I see television adverts from the pharmaceutical companies for Nicorette and that sort of thing, so why on earth should these products be treated differently?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I certainly hope that enforcement will be more Italian than traditionally British, if I may put it that way.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am obliged to the Minister for giving way yet again. I understand that he has no power over taxation but, as a member of the department, he has the opportunity to make recommendations to the Treasury. Would he be prepared to ask his department to recommend to the Treasury that it should not put any tax, other than VAT, on this product?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I am not responsible for public health in the Department of Health but I will talk to my honourable friend Jane Ellison, who is the Minister for Public Health and will put that view to her very strongly.