Bread and Flour Regulations (Folic Acid) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Prior of Brampton and Lord Hughes of Woodside

Friday 8th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)]

I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I think he has raised this issue in the House—I wrote this down—10 times in the past three years, as well as in a great many Written Questions. I have been a Minister for just over a year, and he has certainly raised it three times with me. You could say he hopes that doing so will be a triumph of hope over expectation, but it reflects his real passion and genuine heartfelt concern about such tragedies. He mentioned a letter he had received from a colleague whose mother had lost three children from spina bifida, and other noble Lords have brought home to the House what the impact can be. We can sometimes have rather arcane debates in this House, but that impact is very profound not just on the children but on the parents and families of those children. Far from being an irritation to those of us on this side of the House, his single-minded determination to keep this issue before the House has won him a great deal of admiration and respect in all parts of the House.

Perhaps I may start with the science, although frankly my argument will not be with the science. The noble Lord and others have argued that the science is absolutely black and white; I would say that it is clearly strong but there are still some residual issues.

The SACN has advised that the fortification of white bread flour with folic acid should be introduced only if it is accompanied by a number of preconditions: for example, action to reduce folic acid intakes from voluntary fortified foods, to ensure that individuals do not substantially exceed their safe maximum daily intake of folic acid. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, addressed that in his speech so it is perhaps questionable how strong that argument is. It also told us that there is inconclusive evidence on several possible adverse health effects of the mandatory fortification of flour with folic acid. For example, for people aged 65 and over, folate fortification of flour may result in cases of vitamin B12 deficiency not being diagnosed and treated.

However, there is no doubt, certainly in my mind, that the scientific evidence is strong. Regarding other countries, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, mentioned the huge controlled experiment in America. I certainly would not feel comfortable standing here today and arguing with him on the science. Mine is a different argument: fundamentally, it is not a scientific dispute but more of a philosophical dispute. The science is to inform policy but not to determine it. For policy, we must look more to philosophers than scientists, more to moral choice than scientific experiment, and of course to Parliament and not the laboratory.

The nub of the question is this balance between state and individual responsibility. I know that when we bring it down to this issue, it may be felt to be beside the point but that balance is important because it is fundamental to the kind of society that we choose to live in. It is perhaps especially important now, when lifestyle behaviour is becoming such a big driver of healthcare demand. It is such a big driver that unless it is addressed, there is a serious risk that no healthcare system anywhere in the world will be able to afford the level of healthcare that we expect. I know that a special committee of the House of Lords is looking at this now.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, can the Minister explain whether his argument on philosophy applies only to this measure? Does it apply to the treatment of water for safety purposes or to vaccination? It is equivalent to saying that vaccination should not be compulsory in any sense of the word. Where does the line fall as to where the philosophy overcomes the practicality of the matter?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

The noble Lord makes a very good point and I hope to address that issue as I go through this, because where the line is drawn is critical to the debate that we should be having.

The ways in which we live our lives—what we eat or drink, how much exercise we should take and how we should look after ourselves and one another—all directly impact on the likelihood of getting cancer, a stroke or diabetes, or premature death. In this case it directly affects the health of children, so prevention has never been more important. I am sure everyone in this House would agree. The question, as raised by the noble Lord, is then: what are this Government or any Government to do? At one extreme, the answer is to do nothing and, at the other, it is to be highly prescriptive: to determine how we should all live and what we should eat and drink.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to alcohol, which I will take as an example. The Government could have washed their hands entirely of that issue and left it to individuals—the classic, John Galt, libertarian approach, which he may have read about in Atlas Shrugged in his youth. Alternatively, they could have opted for some form of prohibition, as tried in the USA and as we do with certain drugs today—although with profound unintended consequences, I might add.

In the UK, as in most democracies, the balance as to where responsibility lies has shifted over the years. It has not shifted seismically or even consistently—there have been ebbs and flows of where that line should be drawn over the years—but it has shifted away from government intervention towards the individual. That is not surprising: you would expect that shift as the population becomes better educated, better informed and better able to make good decisions.

Health: Red Cell Folate

Debate between Lord Prior of Brampton and Lord Hughes of Woodside

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I think we are still quite early in the new year. I do not go back to 1991 but the noble Baroness is right: for many years now there has been a large body of scientific opinion in favour of increasing the uptake of folic acid. There is no dispute about that—I do not think there is much science to dispute. The issue is one of balancing the scientific and medical arguments with issues around choice and whether or not it is right to medicate the entire population for the benefit of a fairly small part of it.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)]

My Lords, when the Minister says that other views have been taken into account, will he lay to rest today and for ever the idea that the Government will be swayed by those who say, spuriously and nonsensically, that this is mass medication?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

The proposal is that bread should be fortified with folic acid. The point of doing it through bread is that most people eat bread and that it would reach the widest number of people. It would be fortifying a product that most people eat; that is the purpose of it.