Housing: Accessibility

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right on that point. Obviously, wherever planning is required, it will have to be compliant with the statement and guidance that the Prime Minister activated on 26 June. He also raises the further problem of potential retrofitting at some stage for homes that do not yet comply with the new standard, which applies only to new builds.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, I remind those on the Benches opposite that in 30 years’ time most properties will still be the ones we are currently living in and not new builds. Does the Minister think it is time that the Treasury and whoever moves in this Thursday with his boxes look at taking the VAT off retrospectively fitting homes to make them fit for life?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. I had better be very careful about advice to the Treasury; when I was getting a briefing on this issue, my officials told me I could undertake to meet a particular Member, or at least my successor could. I asked them what they had heard; they said they had not heard anything, and I am taking that at face value. The noble Lord is right that there is a continuing issue that will need to be addressed. There is a range of properties that will not meet these new standards, which apply just to M1, but that, as it relates to funding, is a matter for the Treasury.

Tower Blocks: Cladding

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for those points. I agree that we are entering that stage where local authorities need to be considering these measures. I update the House, as I did on 7 January, that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State wrote to local authorities in December, indicating that they have the power—and, in extreme circumstances, even a duty—to act here. We have given an assurance that if financial assistance is needed, we will come forward with it. The Secretary of State will be reviewing progress, as officials do every week to ensure that progress is being made. As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, we have made progress, even since 7 January. Do we need to do more? We do, but officials are pressing forward, as is the Secretary of State.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, the Government should be commended for the speed with which they have put extra resources into the social sector to make sure that money has not been a barrier to getting the cladding removed. The time must now have come for financial assistance to be given to those buildings that are in the private sector. However, I do not believe for one minute that the money should then be written off for the taxpayer. Surely the Government must pursue the people responsible for the inappropriate materials—not just the cladding, but the inappropriate insulation, where it has been used. Every effort should be made to recover that money for the taxpayer, but the current leaseholders should not be the ones having to face that dilemma every night.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as ever, I thank my noble friend for a timely and helpful intervention. While his question related specifically to private residential buildings, I do not want to miss the opportunity of saying that in the public arena and the social sector, we have made £400 million available for remedial activity. I agree with what he says; that is part of the process the Secretary of State is engaged in. We are very aware that we need to complete this process. We want to do it with the assurance that leaseholders will not pick up the bill. That would be morally unacceptable, as we have indicated. I pay tribute to the many private companies that have come forward to say that they will sustain the financial cost of this position. We need to encourage, cajole and ensure that others do the same.

Combustible Cladding

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I indicated, all the buildings have been identified. The 69 buildings I referred to are private ones. The statutory position is that the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that their cladding comes off rests with local authorities, but the Secretary of State made it clear that finance will not stand in the way of that and we will provide financial assistance if needed.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Local Government Association. Can my noble friend the Minister clarify his last statement about local councils being responsible for removing and replacing cladding on private sector buildings? Councils up and down the country must operate within the law of the land, which does not allow them to go in and take cladding off of other people’s buildings.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right. I did not mean to imply that. I meant to say that the authority for ensuring that this happens rests with local authorities, which can require private owners to take such action. If I did not make that clear, I wish to do so now.

Provisional Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register: I am the leader of South Holland District Council and chairman of the Local Government Association. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister is probably not keen on me standing up to speak, but for once I will say that this is a good settlement. I have been dealing with these settlements for eight years, and this is the first time that most of our members are complaining that the size of the increase is not enough. In the previous seven years, they all moaned about the size of the cuts. It would be churlish not to acknowledge that at least this is the start of a move in the right direction. The Government should be commended for recognising that we are at the bottom of where we can be.

It is not inefficiencies that are driving additional costs in local government, it is the extra demands being made on services. Some 1,000 extra children a day are being looked at, and there are 5,000 requests for adult social services a day. These are huge costs. However, if we do not get the social services stuff right, all of those costs then fall on the health service. The Minister has already acknowledged that a social services bed is much cheaper than a national health bed. So it makes sense from the taxpayer’s point of view to ensure that we invest as much as possible in preventive social care, rather than in acute care to fix whatever has been broken. It might be a good idea if someone figured out how much of the extra £20 billion that the health service is getting would be better directed towards adult social care, in order to prevent the health service having to take that on. Both Secretaries of State appear to be looking at this.

Will the Minister agree to go back to the department and get his colleagues to lobby every other spending department that gives small sums of money to local government? Let us not let those departments think that they can freeze those sums, and make sure that they are increased at least in line with inflation, because that will put additional funding into the hands of local government.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend and he is right to say that on occasion, my heart is in my mouth when he gets up to speak, but I always recognise the fairness with which he addresses the issues. I also understand that he speaks from the front line. I recognise, as we all do, the pressures that are on local government. As I say, we really commend the work being done by councillors up and down the country. I think he is being fair when he says that this is a good settlement. I also think he is being fair when he says that we have had some challenges in the past. Perhaps this has to be set against the background of what will be a significant year, because of the business rate retention scheme coming on line, fair funding being looked at and the spending review—outside of what the Chancellor has said is the end of austerity. Given that, we should expect things to ease.

It would be absolutely right to accede to the request of the noble Lord. It is beyond my pay grade to speak to Secretaries of State on an equal basis, but I will certainly pass on to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State his view that other spending departments should be encouraged to look at what they can do because of the demands being made on local government.

The noble Lord, Lord Porter, said that the challenges are due to increased demand rather than inefficiencies. I accept that, which is why the digital declaration in the Statement is particularly important, as is the announced £7.5 million local digital innovation fund, which provides transformation funding for the town planning system in Southwark—the area of birth of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. Other similar announcements were made in Birmingham, to look at the way in which Amazon’s Alexa or Apple’s Siri can help with the delivery of some services. We have to think outside the box in innovative ways to make the most of digital services. That point was made in relation to the earlier Statement on police funding.

Local Government

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for those comments. The formula that we are looking at is in essence about redistribution. It is in three separate phases. The first is to look at the relative needs of different areas. The consultation on that has concluded and we will be publishing its results when the second phase of the consultation, looking at relative resources, starts in December. The third stage, which will be in late spring or summer next year, will look at allocations and transitional arrangements. The noble Lord is right that the situation has its complexities; there is a simplicity about the aims, but the difficulty will be in their delivery. As I say, though, that sits alongside looking at resources and the spending review that will go alongside it, so those are two separate matters. The business rate retention scheme, at 75%, will also kick in when the fair funding formula comes in, in April 2020.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that with £15 billion of reductions for local government by 2020, the local government sector has done more than its fair share of ensuring that the burden that the country has carried since the previous Government were in power has been met, that that equates to 60p in the pound in central government funding and that a fair funding review must make sure that no council is worse off than it currently is?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My noble friend always, understandably, makes a powerful case for local authorities. He will be aware that in the Budget we added money for adult and children’s social care. As I said, the fair funding formula is not about adding to the pot—that will, I hope, be done in the spending review next year.

East Suffolk (Local Government Changes) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords very much indeed for their contributions in relation to these issues affecting Suffolk. I will deal with the contributions in the order that they were made, if I may. I turn first to my noble friend Lord Tebbit, with his personal experience of St Edmundsbury Borough Council—an excellent council in a lovely part of the country. My noble friend quite correctly said that this is de facto catching up with de jure, because this has been the position for a long while. I also remind all noble Lords that these proposals are locally led. This is not a government imposition of what we would like to see; this is something that is locally led so, in relation to the local democracy element, that is very important.

I am very happy as the Minister for Faith to be presiding over this union, this coming together, of these two parties—

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

I am sorry, but somebody will have to clarify whether I can speak. I was not here at the start of the debate, so I did not know that the Committee agreed to take the instruments en bloc. I intended to get here as quickly as I could, so I thought I could at least speak on the second pair when they were reached.

Housing: Right-to-Buy Sales

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate also is an expert in this area—he does a lot on rural housing, and I applaud him for that—and he is right. As I say, there is an issue that needs addressing in relation to rural areas and social housing. It is a more difficult issue there. I expect the social housing Green Paper to come up with thoughts on this but meanwhile, as I say, there are particular policies on right to acquire and right to buy that alleviate the position in rural areas.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, the original question referring to 2010 was slightly disingenuous. Do Ministers—certainly this Minister—agree that the housing crisis has been caused over the last 30 years, not the last 10 years, and that the only way of building enough homes is by diversifying the amount of people who can get into that space? History shows that the only time this country has ever reached 300,000 homes is when councils have been allowed to take up their proper role and deliver a major part of them.

Northamptonshire County Council

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Earl for those points. First, interventions can and do happen. This is not the first intervention in local government services: there have been others for other reasons—Rotherham, Doncaster, Hull and so on. Naturally, any Government would be loath—that might not be too strong a word, but certainly wary—to intervene because of the importance of local government being just that. Of course, there are checks and balances within the local government system operating properly. There is proper scrutiny and there are proper balances. As I think I said on a previous Statement on Northamptonshire, we have looked carefully to see whether any other local authority is remotely in the same position and satisfied ourselves that there is not, but that is something that we obviously keep under careful scrutiny and review.

I also say—and should have said earlier in response to points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, in particular—that there will be regular reporting to the Secretary of State by any commissioners who are appointed to ensure that the correct procedures are instituted and proper progress made by those commissioners.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

I declare my interest as chairman of the Local Government Association and leader of South Holland District Council. It is obviously regrettable when central government feels the need to dip its toes beyond just splashing about into local government, and it is a shame that there is not a way to avoid external commissioners going in, leaving the sector to be able to regulate this part of the world for ourselves—but clearly, under current legislation, it is not. It is with regret that I support my noble friend’s statement that it is time for the commissioners to go in.

I do not think that we should be leaving all the blame purely with Northamptonshire. Clearly local government in general is facing a very tight financial situation, although Northamptonshire cannot claim to be the worst funded. If it were, it probably would have had a case in saying that it was purely down to central government. But it is not the worst funded, and those that are considerably worse funded than Northamptonshire have not got into that state, so we have to accept that Max Caller’s report to a large extent is correct about the financial mismanagement by senior officers and the lack of political oversight while that was happening.

That said, the solution of sending in commissioners is fine but, on the reorganisation, I struggle to see how a change in structure will assist the financial situation because a restructure costs money in the initial years anyway. I would want some reassurance that the Government were prepared to underwrite any potential restructure costs. My real question is that there appears to be an inconsistency in the letter that has gone out today to council chief executives. It clearly says that a proposal from type B authorities—basically the districts—for some sort of reorganisation within Northamptonshire to at least two unitaries is the model that is being looked at, or would be preferred from the Government’s perspective. But that does not preclude a bid that includes a district council neighbouring Northamptonshire being part of the bid. That is largely because of the current structural arrangements of two councils—one in Northamptonshire and one in, I think, Oxfordshire.

The letter also says specifically that a single county model is ruled out. Does that mean a single county model with one district from a neighbouring borough is not ruled out? It is inconclusive, in the opinions I have had on that letter. If we are expected to advise the sector, it would be handy to have an answer to that question.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Porter very much for a balanced and temperate observation. I absolutely agree that it is clear from the Caller review that commissioner intervention is appropriate. Central government, under various political parties, has always been wary about interventions, but here it is undoubtedly the right approach and certainly the recommendation. Once again, I remind noble Lords that this is not a matter of finance; it is a matter of management and governance, as was made very clear by the Caller report: silo thinking; lack of team working; lack of challenge; and so on. No doubt, inappropriate financial decisions were made but they were based on an essential failure of governance according to the Caller review.

On the point made by my noble friend Lord Porter in relation to possible restructuring, the department and the Secretary of State are very keen to hear the views of the districts and of the county on that. That is important. It is made very clear in the letter that we want the determined views of the local councils before responding by the end of July. I would encourage councils to regard the fact that they can make recommendations about restructuring, which will be looked at by the department and the Government. Obviously there is time to consider this—if not at leisure, then certainly with some reflection, because I quite agree that it is a very important step to be taken.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 8th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am coming to that point, but I anticipate that they would. I will just deal with this point, because there is a complication here. In devolved areas, many of these issues will be matters for the devolved Administration dealing with the relevant bodies. That has to be catered for too. Clearly some non-devolved matters would be part of the arrangement relating to this legislation, but we have to recognise that there are some that are rightly the prerogative of devolved Administrations.

This is the important point, which I hope goes some way to answer the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. My colleague in the other place, the Minister for Local Government, Rishi Sunak, will carry this forward with the local government associations’ representatives, and we will update the House on the progress made by the next stage of the Bill. I anticipate that in seeking to replicate the arrangements it will take that forward. We need to allow those discussions to take place with the Minister in charge of local government. I will report back on this on Report.

I will deal with the relevant points raised. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about the importance of the European Social Fund, the European structural funds, steel, community energy and so on. I anticipate that all these points will come within the ambit of the new arrangements.

My noble friend Lord Porter of, I think, South Holland made it clear that he had consultation and discussion with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and the DExEU teams. That is very much on the record.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, talked about the regions of England being left out of the devolution arrangements. I readily recognise that point. It came up in a wide-ranging discussion that, apart from the city mayors—I take the noble Lord’s point about Yorkshire not quite being there at the moment, but it will eventually be there with the might of the whole of the county, so I hope that will progress—there is, I readily recognise, a dimension in England that is not answered by the devolution arrangements that exist for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord, Lord Tope, spoke with feeling and passion about the importance of the Committee of the Regions. He was clearly very much part of it. In this House we have the collective wisdom of many noble Lords as to how that operated very effectively.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, talked about the paradox of devolution. I recognise some of the points he made, although I do not necessarily agree with all of them. He talked about the regions of England having some of the highest Brexit votes. That is true, but we should not ignore the fact that some very high Brexit votes were in the valleys of Wales. That happened not just where there was an absence of some substructure of government. I think that the highest yes vote in Wales was in Conservative Monmouthshire, so these things are perhaps not quite as simple as they may seem.

[Lord Porter of Spalding]

My colleagues in Wales would not forgive me if I missed the opportunity to put it on record that that was probably due largely to the fact that devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland seems to have bypassed local government in all those provinces as it seems to have done in this country. If the vote there was due to people not being consulted, it might be because the Welsh devolution system does not recognise Welsh local government.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am not going to be tempted too far down that path, but I shall be tempted a little way. The area that has historically been most resistant to devolution is Monmouthshire, the only local authority that voted against extended powers in 2011.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Let me finish the point if the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will allow. If what I said is true, the area with the lowest yes vote on devolution had the highest yes vote in relation to Europe, so I am not sure that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Porter, would be borne out totally.

[Lord Porter of Spalding]

I think that proves my point.

Building Safety Update

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness speaks for many people when she makes that point, which is a fair one. We have all seen this week the particular block in Croydon. There is some concern about this and my right honourable friend has said that, morally, it should be picked up by the landlords. If I may and as it has concerned many of us, I should like to update noble Lords on where we are on this issue in my letter, which I appreciate will be very wide-ranging.

[Lord Porter of Spalding]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register as chairman of the Local Government Association and leader of South Holland District Council. I will contain my remarks purely to the issue of the doors today. If I spread into the wider Grenfell issues and my opinion of the expert panel, I will probably stray into unparliamentary language.

The manufacturer claimed it had the ability to produce 50,000 units a year, that the doors complied with Part M of the building regulations and that they had been approved by the BRE. Given all that, what can my noble friend the Minister say to assure the House that we can have faith in the advice from the expert panel that this is not such a major issue?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend who, understandably, has taken great interest in issues relating to Grenfell and the role of local government. In relation to the particular manufacturer he refers to, as I have said, these doors are no longer being manufactured. I can state that categorically. We are obviously looking at the issue of compliance.

Other doors have been tested and found to be deficient, but not nearly as deficient as this one, so that is another issue. There are difficulties in relation to Grenfell, because most of the fire doors were of course destroyed, which has presented a problem for testing. It is also a restricted site because of it being a crime scene. Nevertheless, we are obviously checking very closely to see exactly where these doors have been tested, as they are required to be, to ensure compliance. This will satisfy what the Secretary of State has rightly said about the need to look at this at pace and to test other doors beyond Grenfell to see whether they are compliant or not. At the moment, from the evidence that we have, it appears to be a single batch.

Northamptonshire County Council

Debate between Lord Porter of Spalding and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, in a sense, I have just answered the noble Lord’s point in relation to the comments made by CIPFA yesterday, not from a party-political angle, which say that this is very much a single authority that is not meeting the challenges that other local authorities are meeting. Yes, there is a financial challenge—it would be ridiculous to suggest that there is not—but as far as we can see this is the sole authority that is not meeting those challenges. I do not think it is just a financial issue; it is very much a governance issue as well.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as leader of South Holland District Council and the chairman of the Local Government Association. First, we should congratulate the leader of Northamptonshire County Council on calling the Local Government Association in to do a peer review of its financial situation. She is a relatively new in that position. It is also worth noting that if that council received the average county council funding, it would have more than £20 million a year extra to spend on its services, so this problem is much more complicated than it appears on the face of it. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to my request to see the independence from government that we are now being given for the first council that decides it needs to put its council tax up by more than the level that the Government approve at the moment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that the leader took that initiative to initiate the peer review. Peer reviews are important across the piece, and the LGA receives roughly £21 million so that that can happen. She certainly deserves congratulations on that. As I say, the peer review found that there were governance issues such as a lack of transparency, no culture of challenge and so on. The comments made by the peer review are important in looking at what has gone wrong in Northamptonshire. As I say, there is also a best-value inspection going on, which will report on 16 March. Clearly, we cannot comment on that while it is under way.