Housing and Planning Bill

Lord Porter of Spalding Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

We know that one of the factors affecting the quality of children’s lives is the standard of the homes they live in. That can affect their future health and certainly their future educational outcomes. I plead with the Government to think very hard about what we are doing to families that will be forced into private renting. How are they ever going to achieve what is said to be the aim, which is that of home ownership?

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

I shall respond briefly to the noble Baroness. The point I made was that if I was living in that property paying rent for the next 74 years, or if I bought it and released the equity in it so that the landlord could invest the money in a replacement, it cannot be said that there would not be additional units because clearly there would be. The equity that was tied up in that unit was freed. It makes no odds to the country whether I was living in it for 74 years paying rent or whether I was paying Mr Bradford and Mr Bingley a mortgage on it. We got the money out and we could reinvest it in new properties. If the noble Baroness thinks that her record of selling 400 and replacing with six was a marker that we should all aspire to, I am a little confused. Surely she should have been looking at why they replaced the sale of 400, to free up the equity, with only six.

The arguments today should be about the size of the discount, not the principle of right-to-buy sales. There is a strong argument to make that the discount needs to be sufficient to stimulate demand and not excessive, but that is not a debate that I have seen any noble Lord choose to make. The noble Baroness has missed the mark with where she is playing the amendment. If I was on the Benches opposite, I would have come at this with a completely different pack. It is really important that we give everybody equality of tenure. If some social tenants have access to right to buy, they should all get it.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy for what the noble Lord, Lord Porter, said, but what we have been trying to say repeats to some extent what he said. The argument is about not just right to buy, although we can have different views on that, but who funds the discount. I agree that the proportionality of the discount matters and we want it to be only enough to help people realistically into home ownership, but to screw local authorities for it seems to me an issue about which many of us would worry. I include the noble Lord in this, but he can disagree if he wishes.

[Lord Porter of Spalding]

I largely agree with the noble Baroness: it is not right that local authorities are funding inefficient RSLs to make the discount up. The money should come first and foremost from the RSLs, but again, nobody on the other Benches is making that case. The case should be made that RSLs should be forced to sweat their assets properly. They are sitting on more than £2.5 billion on their balance sheets in cash, plus the unsecured money that they have that they could take out against those properties. That is where we should be coming from. If we do not stick to taking just them on, then we could come back to the Government and say, “Actually, the state’s sitting on a lot of land that is redundant and not used for the purpose that it was originally bought for. It is sitting there undervalued”. We should then purchase it or give it to local authorities to increase its value and then use that money. Again, nobody is making that point. Noble Lords are challenging the right to buy itself; that is not where the fire should be. The country voted to extend right to buy. We should be challenging the Government to find a way to fund it that is more appropriate and sustainable.

[Baroness Pinnock]

The noble Lord, Lord Porter, has not listened to what I said. Not one word did I say in opposition to right to buy. I did say that there was not the opportunity, once you have released that equity, necessarily to house a family. What happens, certainly under right to buy, which is the experience we have for council housing, is that councils are fearful—in fact, they would be foolish—to build houses subject to future right to buy because they will be constantly losing the equity value of it. It would be under right to buy constantly. Certainly in my experience of councils in West Yorkshire what is happening once a house is sold is those councils are either building properties that are not subject to right to buy or putting the equity into a community housing group so that they cannot be subject to right to buy. That is one of the problems that I have urged the Government to look at.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, there will be abuse, and the incentives are very substantial. I have some figures on what is happening in Westminster which might be of interest to Members of the House. The average cost of a one-bedroom council flat in Westminster is £113.78 a week. When it is sold off and in the private sector, that same flat now fetches £480 a week. That is nearly four times as much. A two-bed flat is £128 a week in the social sector and £450 a week when it is sold off. A four-bed flat is £157 a week in Westminster and £738 a week when it is in the private sector. We are talking about former council flats here. That is £38,500 a year after tax for a former council flat that would be rented out today at £157 a week if it was still in the public sector. These figures are an absolute scandal. The Government are promoting all this in the Bill, and we cannot see why they insist on doing it.

Westminster City Council has its own residential department, CityWest Homes, which at least tries to bring some sanity to this market, but its rents are very high as well. The problem is essentially that private landlords and estate agents in London market these properties at silly prices, and they have a market. Who is the market? People I have discussed this with now tell me that these flats are not being taken by former council tenants in receipt of housing benefit because of the cap. I am told that 70% of all Westminster council flats that have been sold off now go to overseas tenants, because, obviously, they have the money. In other words, we are shifting people out of London into the suburbs and using the properties in which they formerly lived as private accommodation, which is being let to people from overseas who come to London. This is an absolute scandal, and I cannot see the sanity in what the Government are doing. That is all I need to say at this stage of the debate.

[Lord Porter of Spalding]

I will ask two questions. To go back to the same principle, what difference does it make whether somebody exercises the right to buy and then occupies a property or whether they free up the equity they have in it, buy something else, and then put that property back into the private rented sector? If somebody is living in it, they are living in it, so I am not sure that the noble Lord has the right end of the stick as regards the properties.

Can the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, say whether anybody has asked the mortgage providers whether they would still be happy to provide a mortgage if the use of that property was restricted in the way that is being proposed?

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

The issue is that the taxpayer has paid a 20% discount for that to happen.