Taxation: Avoidance

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Monday 9th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, in the course of his Statement my noble friend said twice, I think, that it is more appropriate to deal with these issues by way of civil proceedings. He mentioned that the amount recovered was a sum short of £200 million. My own experience—I must plead guilty to being a practising lawyer of 57 years’ standing—is very clear that one conviction of one major figure in one major bank for tax fraud, such as that which HSBC has been carrying out for many years, reverberates around the City and the world of business and the professions with infinitely more force and effectiveness than any amount of civil penalties, which none of those who are responsible for the malefactions actually pay from their own pocket.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked about civil as opposed to criminal penalties, and whether an exemplary hanging might not be a good idea. I explained the difficulties about prosecutions in this case, but we have successfully prosecuted people for LIBOR manipulation and we have extended the scope of the criminal law in respect of people in senior positions in banks. The noble Lord will probably have seen that the very threat of criminal action against directors of banks, even though pretty remote, has made a number of non-executive directors of banks extremely nervous.

Income Tax

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, paying the living wage is something that the Government support but, as we have discussed before in your Lordships’ House, there is a balance between rising wages and unemployment. That is the basis on which the minimum wage is set. I gave an example from the Dispatch Box the last time we discussed this: having spoken to people working in the textile industry in Leicester, they demonstrated to me that a big increase in the wage that they were paid would mean that fewer of them would be earning it, because they would be out of the job.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, is it not the case that income tax should be a good deal higher, particularly if those in the higher ranges of income paid their full amount of tax? What are we doing to tighten the receipt of income tax from all who should pay it?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the amount of income tax paid by the top 1% is now 28% of the total income tax revenues, which is the highest proportion it has ever been. That is because this Government have put substantially more money into fighting tax avoidance and evasion—far, far more—than the previous Administration.

Tax: Aggressive Tax Avoidance

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think that that is easier said than done.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House whether the Government refuse to grant contracts to the companies and individuals that are engaged in this ludicrous and anti-social avoidance?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think that there have been a number of cases in recent times where companies have lost contracts because they have been behaving in an unreasonable way, and that is a very good principle.

EU: Money-laundering Directive

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Thursday 3rd April 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the approach I set out would mean that we would have a different way of reporting the majority of trusts. Therefore, there would not be a common system across the EU. The Government’s view is that it is very important that, across all the EU, there is a requirement for both companies and trusts to be more transparently described than they are at the moment. That is why we put a huge amount of effort into pursuing the concept of the mandatory requirement on beneficial ownership of companies. We want to ensure that, as far as possible, information about trusts that could be problematic for money-laundering purposes will be more generally available. Our proposals would do that in respect of the UK without having a full mandatory register in the same way as we propose for companies. We accept that there is a difference in nature between the two, but we think we can have the best of both worlds by having that difference of approach between them.

In response to the question from my noble friend Lord Dykes, trusts would not become default alternatives to companies because there are the requirements to report financial information to HMRC and to pay tax where appropriate and also for the automatic exchange of information where the beneficiary is a foreign national.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Would the requirement on the trustees and trust extend to revealing who the beneficial owners are?

[Lord Newby]

I am not sure I can give my noble friend a definitive answer now. I may be able to, but in any event I will write to him about that.

My noble friend Lord Dykes referred to the challenges of making a risk assessment in this area. Of course, it is almost an impossible task. I do not think that the risk assessment is a key part of the process. We do it because we have a broad sense of what the risks are, without being able to get to the nearest pound or euro.

In answer to my noble friend Lord Phillips’ earlier question, I should have been clearer: the answer is yes.

My noble friend Lord Dykes also asked about third country equivalence. Commission proposals do not include provisions for listing of third countries as having equivalent money-laundering or terrorist-financing regimes. Under the third money-laundering directive, this proved to be a problematic process, and the white list of equivalent jurisdictions was difficult to keep up to date. The FATF peer reviews of member states heavily criticised this white-listing process, and we support the Commission’s view.

My noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury discussed the reductions in HMRC staff. It is not a question of whether they are more efficient at doing the same jobs. The truth is that the way in which we manage the tax affairs of the vast bulk of individuals and companies is now online. A huge number of staff whose jobs were essentially related to dealing with paper are no longer necessary. The reduction in staff is largely in response to changed circumstances. I remind my noble friend that we put in an additional almost £1 billion in this Parliament for staff working on tax avoidance and evasion. That has already generated several million pounds-worth of additional revenue beyond what we believe would otherwise have been obtained. There has been a change in gear, if you like, in the way that HMRC operates.

To sum up, given that my time is very brief, the UK is leading from the front on an agenda that places a practical emphasis on transparency and accountability. The Government are working to ensure that the EU shows similar ambition on what is a cross-border issue, with serious implications for developed and developing countries alike. We want the outcome to be fair and proportionate, but we also require it to be effective. That is what we are working towards and what I am optimistic that we will achieve.

Pensions

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Thursday 12th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, the big new development in pensions is around auto-enrolment. In this area, the Government have set a cap on allowable fees, precisely to deal with the problem of high fees going forward. More generally, the FCA is undertaking a thematic review of annuities, which will look at fees among other things. There is a lot going on and we will see action without needing to set up any further bodies to bring it about.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, would the Minister not accept that, after the latest in an apparently endless series of disillusioning revelations about the cynicism of too many parts of the financial sector in particular, it is about time that we as a Parliament, and indeed the Government, made clear to the people of this country that there is a limit to what we can do in these issues? They bear on profound moral issues. Perhaps the time is right for us to, in effect, throw the ball back into the court of Mr and Mrs Britain and call upon them to exercise their own, individual moral autonomy and power to effect some sort of reformation of what is becoming a very depressing state of affairs.

[Lord Newby]

There are obvious limits to what government and Parliament can do, but I have always believed that one of the very important things that Parliament can do is to act as the bully pulpit and set out what it thinks is the correct way of behaviour. In terms of the financial institutions we have instituted, as the noble Lord knows, a number of pieces of legislation in this area but, as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards pointed out, culture is very important—that is, the culture of the industry and also of consumers. A big problem around pensions in particular is that virtually no consumer understands the product that they are buying, which makes it very difficult for us to get people to accept responsibility. They find it very difficult to get to grips with a pretty complicated product.

Taxation: Rental Income

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

I do not know the strict answer to that question, but HMRC makes strong efforts to bring home to everybody who should be paying tax that they should be doing that, which is why the Government have put in almost an extra £1 billion a year towards tackling tax avoidance and evasion.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister contemplate the fact that, in many London boroughs, 70% and more of the housing being purchased is purchased by foreign buyers? Many of them have poor credentials as to their abidance by law in their own states, let alone laws here. Might we not be getting near the time when we need to consider limiting the extent to which foreign buyers can dominate the housing market in London?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there is a very disparate housing market in London. At the bottom end of the market, the vast bulk of houses are purchased domestically. At the very top end, the vast bulk of houses are purchased by foreign buyers, particularly from Russia, eastern Europe and the Far East. One key thing that we are very keen to try to achieve is a greater degree of housebuilding in London and elsewhere. Only by building a lot more houses will it be possible to satisfy the demands of a growing population.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Wednesday 27th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to require the Treasury to undertake a review of the consequences of exempting certain gaming contracts from the rule that used to provide that no gaming contract or wager could be enforced in a court of law. Such a review would consider the national, commercial and economic effects, in addition to the social, cultural and ethical effects, proposed in the equivalent amendment in Committee. I understand my noble friend’s desire to know more about the consequences of what appears to have been an extensive gambling culture in the City of London, which flourished in the derivative markets that expanded significantly following the gaming contracts rule change but was not limited to those markets.

The financial crisis exposed serious problems in derivative markets—particularly, as the most reverend Primate pointed out during our last debate on the equivalent amendment, in OTC activities. Clearly, the proliferation of such activities and the lack of adequate regulation showed up a need for change.

Following extensive international regulatory debate, a set of significant international reforms was agreed by the G20 to address these concerns. It may be helpful if I provide noble Lords with a short update on what they are. They include measures to ensure transparency by requiring all OTC derivatives transactions to be reported to trade repositories, and the requirement for all standardised derivatives to be centrally cleared and, where appropriate, traded on electronic platforms. These reforms are now being implemented in the UK and should go some way towards limiting the risks associated with these instruments.

So far as the wider effects of gaming in the City are concerned, the PCBS undertook an extensive and wide-ranging examination of the professional standards and culture of the UK banking sector. Its final report made a number of findings on the existing standards and culture in the banking sector, and recommendations as to what might be done to improve the position. We are seeking to give effect to those recommendations in this Bill. As the noble Lord will be aware, we will have a debate on the broader cultural aspects of the PCBS’s report next week.

In the circumstances, I am not sure that a formal Treasury review, as proposed by the noble Lord, is the best way forward. In Committee, I suggested to him that a more appropriate way forward to address his concerns might be for him and, possibly, other Members of your Lordships’ House to work with a think tank that specialises in financial services to undertake such a review. The precedent I had in mind was the review of the banking sector undertaken in the previous Parliament. The Future of Banking Commission was chaired by David Davis MP and included not only my colleague Vince Cable but the noble Lord, Lord McFall. That report had a major impact at the time in influencing the consideration of how we should be looking at the banking sector. The advantage of such a structure over a formal Treasury structure is that it enables a wide range of individuals, including serving politicians, to sit on it. That is much more likely to happen if it is done under the aegis of that sort of think tank than if it is initiated by the Treasury. As a result, when the report came out, it commanded a broad degree of public respect.

I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury about the specific consequences of potential tax avoidance or evasion by people involved in this sector. I undertake to discuss that with my colleagues in the Treasury in the context of measures that might be brought forward in a future finance Bill. I agree that at first sight it appears to be a loophole that we should have a look at. As noble Lords know, the Government have devoted considerable resource and attention to these issues. I am sure my colleagues in the Treasury will be happy to have a look at the issue.

With those suggestions, I hope my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I thank the Minister for what he said. I am particularly pleased to hear him say that he will take up the two practical points made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, which are entirely germane to the review that I was thinking of. That will be an important step forward. I am obviously disappointed that the Government will not go further, but I do not think that I can take the matter any further today.

In opening, I should have said how grateful I was to two professors at the University of Essex, on whom I relied substantially for a lot of the statistics: Professor Sikka and Professor Markose. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, first, is my noble friend quite certain that the Interpretation Act 1978 does not itself operate subject to the context of the language which is being interpreted? If that is so, I believe that there will be real ambiguity about this clause because, as I say, the law is construed strictly in favour of the accused. Secondly, does he accept that in a clause like this, to rely on the Interpretation Act rather than put in some plain words that make it clear, is unhelpful to people who must refer to this piece of legislation in the future?

[Lord Newby]

I am not sure that I do, my Lords, but I wonder if I might write to the noble Lord to clarify our thinking and, it is hoped, persuade him that we have got it right.

Taxation: Tax Law Enforcement

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will enable those who enforce the tax laws to accomplish their tasks better.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, this Government are investing in HMRC, so that it will be collecting £10 billion a year more from its compliance activities by 2015-16 than it was at the start of this Parliament. The number of HMRC staff in compliance roles fell under the previous Government; under this Government there will be around 2,500 more staff tackling tax avoidance and evasion in 2014-15.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, at a time when decent Brits are struggling to pay their full taxes, is it not wholly counterproductive that many of our richest citizens and companies are evading and avoiding tens of billions of pounds in taxation? According to the HMRC calculation, every extra pound spent on enforcement resources yields £10 to £30. Although the statistics are encouraging, surely we should be doing yet more to avoid the citizen disenchantment that is currently brewing.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with my noble friend. I would remind him that this Government reinvested an additional £917 million in compliance activities in the 2010 spending round. They added another £77 million in last year’s Autumn Statement. Therefore, we have a track record of providing HMRC with additional funding, should it come forward with proposals that result in additional tax yield. It is not inconceivable that HMRC might come forward with such proposals in respect of this year’s Autumn Statement.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend again but it is important for the House to know a little more about this public consultation. I suspect that not one single person here tonight is aware that there is a consultation out there and that it is closing in a matter of a few days. Can the Minister tell us how widely this has been advertised, because it is news to me?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am very happy to write to the noble Lord about the process that has been followed up until now. The whole process of this Bill has demonstrated, as the noble Lord has said, that there is tremendous activity—whether in terms of the regulators producing documents or of other regulatory initiatives, which are very hard to keep up with. I will ensure that we write as a matter of urgency to all noble Lords about this exercise.

Before coming on to what the regulators are already doing in this area, I want to stress the basic point about this review. First, it is wide ranging. Secondly, it aims to beef up the current system. Thirdly, it will apply across the board because the Government do not believe that the financial services sector has a different status in terms of whistleblowing to, say, the oil and gas sector or the pharmaceutical sector. What we need is a common approach across all sectors.

The FCA is already extremely active in supporting and encouraging whistleblowing. The number of whistleblowing contacts received is growing rapidly. There was a 370% increase between 2007 and 2012. The SEC has done very well. It received 3,001 reports in 2012. In the same year, the FSA received 3,929 reports. The impression has been given that the Americans have this system which is generating huge quantities of people coming forward and that the City is absolutely in fear to the extent that no one is coming forward. The figures totally contradict that view. I am not saying for a minute that the system is perfect, cannot be improved or will not be improved, but that the numbers of people coming through in the City are higher than is the case in the States. The FCA’s whistleblowing procedures have been revised to actively track whistleblowing outcomes across the FCA while cases are actively monitored to provide feedback, wherever legally possible, to whistleblowers.

On the point that the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, raised, the regulators have a role in enforcement and protection. The Dodd-Frank Act brought in protections for whistleblowers which, to a considerable extent, already existed in the United Kingdom. The American scheme is of course not what is proposed in the UK, as the noble Lord said. Under that scheme, whistleblowers can receive a proportion of any penalty received from successful enforcement action arising from tips that they provide. That is different from what this amendment proposes. Although the PCBS said that it would like research to be undertaken in this area, it did not suggest an incentive scheme. The regulators are undertaking research, as requested by the parliamentary commission.

The regulators are therefore already doing a lot, including undertaking research, while the Government are undertaking a review of the whole issue across all the sectors. In the light of that, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, there is an assumption that competition is essentially and necessarily good and that more competition is better. We have had manifest evidence in the past six years in the City—and indeed much longer than that— that there is a point at which competition turns in on itself. Indeed, the values of out-and-out aggressive competition are inimical to the values of integrity and honesty. I want to strike a note of caution, because this word is overdone in terms of its necessary public benefit.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, we spent the first part of the afternoon talking about how we get more diversity and competition into the sector. Obviously there is a danger that this can go too far. It is important, however, to realise what these powers do. There are two principal powers. First, Competition Act enforcement powers deal with restrictive practices. Most people would agree that, almost by definition, restrictive practices are not a good thing. The second power is the ability to carry out market studies and make references to the Competition and Markets Authority for a decision on whether action should be taken. Earlier we were discussing the need for the Competition and Markets Authority potentially to do just that. These are not powers that are going to force the FCA to put competition at all costs, at any price, ahead of everything else. They are relatively limited and I think we will find that they are beneficial.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, after 10.20 pm and with less than a dozen of us still hanging on, I shall be remarkably brief in moving this amendment, which I hope has the advantage of self-clarity.

My starting point is the Financial Services Act 1986, which, as noble Lords will remember, ushered in big bang. Section 63 of and Schedule 1 to the 1986 Act exempted certain City dealing contracts from the effects of the Gaming Acts 1845 and 1892. Up until that time those contracts—which were purely gaming contracts—were unenforceable. Since then, the exemptions have been extended, first by the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and further by the Gambling Act 2005.

It is a matter of considerable debate, within the City in particular, about just what the impact of this extremely fast-growing market has been over the years, because fast-growing it has been. I suppose that among all the types of City dealing that have benefited most from exemption from the Gaming Acts there would be much hedge fund activity, which now runs into trades worth trillions of pounds.

It would be beneficial for all concerned to have a review, simply set up and in the hands of the Treasury. The disadvantages of this type of market may be few; they may be beneficial. Many consider that they are a dangerous element in our economic life, because they exaggerate swings and drive markets to extremes. I am afraid that they are susceptible to corruption, in particular, and the most famous or notorious summation of these markets, depending on your point of view, was when Adair Turner—the noble Lord, Lord Turner of Ecchinswell—described them as “socially useless”. I seem to remember from when I was at Cambridge reading economics, ploughing through John Maynard Keynes’s General Theory, that there was one very striking comment in there. I have not quite got it word for word, but the gist is that when the operation of the markets becomes akin to that of a casino, the job is likely to be ill done.

This amendment carries no pre-judgment, but will allow us a cool and collected—and, some would say, overdue—look at the impact of this particular market, the gambling market as you might call it, and see just how it stands. Noble Lords will note in particular that when saying that the Treasury must institute a review of the effects of these gaming contracts, in proposed new subsection (2) of Amendment 91B “effect” is defined as including the,

“social, cultural and ethical effects”,

of this type of gaming business.

As I say, the framework I have provided is a light one. The Treasury will appoint the members of the review committee and describe its terms of reference within the constraints I have put down. In deciding who is going to be part of the review, the Treasury has to consult the Bank of England, the PRA and the FCA. Then there is simply an obligation for the review committee to report within two years of the Act coming into force, and for the Treasury to lay the report before Parliament and then publish more widely. I hope that this will commend itself to the House. I beg to move.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, this amendment proposes that the Treasury should be required to undertake a review into the effects, including the social, cultural and ethical effects, of exempting certain gaming contracts from the rule which used to provide that no gaming contract or wager can be enforced in a court of law. That exemption applied to certain categories of financial contracts, such as derivative contracts like contracts for differences, which could be regarded as gaming contracts within the meaning of the Gaming Acts because of their characteristics. Only those transactions which were subject to regulation under Financial Services legislation, such as the Financial Services Act 1986, and more recently the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, ever benefited from the exemption.

However, the law has changed significantly in this area. Since the Gambling Act 2005 came into force, gaming contracts and wagers are now enforceable through the courts, except in Northern Ireland, and the effect of the exemption is therefore limited to Northern Ireland. In the rest of the United Kingdom, there is no difference in the enforceability of derivative investments and other gaming contracts and wagers. Much of the purpose of the review proposed has therefore, in the Government’s view, gone.

It is also unclear what action could be taken following such a review. Trading in financial instruments is subject to European law, and in particular the markets in financial instruments directive. This limits the extent of the action this country could take in relation to financial instruments falling within the scope of the directive. It is unclear what benefits such a review could bring and we suggest that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment on the basis that it is not proportionate or objectively justified.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I am grateful to the most reverend Primate and to the noble Lord, Lord McFall. However, I am not so grateful to my noble friend the Minister, as I thought that he rather missed the point. The fact that Tom, Dick and Harry can go down to the betting shop or the local casino, run up a debt and be sued for it has nothing whatever to do with the amendment that I propose tonight. As noble Lords have commented, and as is obvious, we are dealing here with huge sums of our money which are gambled, often to the excessive benefit of the gamblers. We do not know how they function and have not looked carefully and closely, as we should, at the impact of this. I refer not so much to the economic impact, although it may be found that the destabilising effects of this market are greater than we realise, but to the ethical, cultural and social effects. For the life of me, I cannot see why a liberal-minded Government should want to staunch such an investigation. I see no downside to it; it would not be expensive and would be simple to operate. It would all be within the purview of the Treasury and it might yield some surprising and valuable results. I therefore hope that the Minister will give this a little further thought, as I am very inclined to bring this back on Report.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for clarifying exactly what lies behind his amendment. I am sorry if I in any way misconstrued it. The issues that he raises about the social and broader consequences of some aspects of the “socially useless” parts of the financial services world are obviously important. I am somewhat less certain about whether the kind of inquiry that he is seeking would produce any decisive results.

I wonder whether he may wish to consider between now and Report whether there is another means of achieving the same result because these issues are very much in the public domain. A dry inquiry might not get us to the answer that he wanted. I wonder whether there might be some broader inquiry, bringing together groups of people with expertise and concern, possibly moderated by a think tank or charity, to look at some these issues. The membership of such an inquiry would be important in determining the result. Too narrow a membership would tend to produce a series of dry, probably useless, recommendations, whereas a broader group operating in a relaxed and unconstrained manner might produce more wide-ranging and socially useful conclusions.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am not sure whether I am supposed to say any more to the Minister except, “Thank you”. I thought that at the end he was arguing my case rather better than I was. I will certainly think between now and next time, and talk with him. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, if I may, I would add that my noble friend talked of being too slow, but in this debate several noble Lords have made the point that it is not slowness which has afflicted the large clearing banks but immorality. Whether you are talking about trying to manipulate the LIBOR rate or PPI or identity insurance—you can go on and on—there is the sheer scale, impersonality and lack of relationship or any sort of customer allegiance. I fear that these have rotted the foundations of so many of these colossal banks. Does he not therefore understand that the gist of these amendments is to try to replace that state of affairs?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, as far as immorality is concerned, later we will deal with amendments on the reversal of the burden of proof and on the new criminal offence which will be available should banks behave in a grossly immoral way. That is the way to deal with the narrow point my noble friend makes. The whole question of the culture of the banks is addressed only partially in the legislation because it is by definition a cultural issue. We are taking very significant steps to regulate individual senior managers and hold them to account for what they do in a way that has never been the case in the past. Again, that is quite a revolutionary change. Regarding the specific point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, I believe that local authorities at least can bank wherever they choose, but I will look into the point and write to him. I simply do not know what the position is.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I support very much what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has just said. We need a clear and authoritative report from my noble friend the Minister as to who is right between the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, who is a highly distinguished lawyer, and those who are advising my noble friend. If there is any doubt about the matter, I see virtue in the amendments put down in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Brennan, Lord McFall and Lord Watson of Invergowrie. I commend the organisations that have helped to craft those important amendments. There again, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, seems to make a strong point. If on second thoughts the Minister cannot assure us that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, is superfluous, one would want him to assure the House that the noble Baroness’s concern is superfluous.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, perhaps I may start by dealing with the three points on which the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, sought clarification. The first was on the definition of “bank” for the purposes of these amendments. The regime will apply to all UK institutions that have permission to take deposits. That covers ring-fenced banks, other banks, building societies, credit unions and some wholesale deposit takers, but it does not cover things which in popular parlance are called banks but which do not take deposits.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

Yes, I hope I can. As I was just saying, we had to put in the Bill a form of words that would create a credible offence that could be successfully prosecuted. The two requirements that an individual’s conduct had to fall far below what could reasonably be expected of them and that they were aware of the risk they were taking, would, in the view of the lawyers, capture recklessness. It is a definition of recklessness without the use of the word. The wording gives a greater chance of having a credible offence than using the word “reckless”. It is an attempt to make sure that we have got something that we could use, while capturing the concept.

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, asked about the difference between the heading and the text. My understanding is that headings of sections of the Bill do not constitute part of the Bill for legal reasons. It may be possible to improve the heading, but the noble Lord should not worry about it. The noble Lord asked whether any restrictions on conditions which were imposed might be made public. At first sight, I cannot see any reason why that should not be the case, but I will write to him to confirm the position.

We have had a good debate on these amendments. I commend the government amendments to the House.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I do not think the Minister has adequately dealt with the point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes and partly by myself. Surely it is an inescapable point that if you say that someone has to cause the failure of a bank, that is a direct and hugely demanding test. If it had said instead that the decision significantly contributed to the failure of a bank then I think my noble friend and I would be content because it satisfies justice as well as practicality. Is he not concerned that this will undermine the whole purpose of this amendment?

[Lord Newby]

I do not think it undermines the whole purpose of the amendment. It obviously reduces the scope of cases which can be brought under this amendment, but the challenge that the lawyers have had is to make sure, as far as possible, that there is the certainty of what constitutes an offence, which is required under human rights legislation. That has been one of the principle drivers for the particular form of words that we have got. I accept the noble Baroness’s point that in some cases there will be a whole raft of contributory decisions which over a period lead to a bank failing. It will be, I accept, more difficult to bring a prosecution in those cases. It is not inconceivable, however, to argue, without having any particular case in mind, that if a senior executive of a bank persuaded the board to make an acquisition knowing that it was a very risky acquisition which if it went wrong could bring the bank down, that decision would fall squarely, as I understand it, within the scope of the Government’s proposals. I do not think it is outside the realms of possibility that a senior manager in the bank might take such a decision.

Taxation: Avoidance

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think there is a willingness on the part of HMRC and the Government more generally to work with any country that seeks to do that. As I say, we are already working with 20 countries. In recent months, DfID and HMRC have been looking together at how to put together a business case to allocate more resources to this area. The interesting thing about it is that this is a relatively new area. We have realised that we have expertise that can make a big difference to a whole raft of developing countries, and we are very keen now to capitalise on it.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Will my noble friend accept that when British companies are involved in tax avoidance schemes abroad, it invariably has a British dimension, and that, sadly, some tax avoidance schemes are plain fraudulent? Is it not therefore essential that HMRC should have much more and better quality staff? Frankly, at the moment, there is a gross inequality of arms.

Taxation: Tax Havens

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the root of the problem, beyond discussion and consensus, is a grotesque disparity between the tax authorities and the taxpayers in this country? It is not David and Goliath but David without a sling and Goliath. Unless we do something about that disparity between the numbers and quality of advisers available to unscrupulous taxpayers, on the one hand, and those available to HMRC, on the other, we can forget about the rest.

[Lord Newby]

Absolutely, my Lords. That is why the Government agreed to put another £900 million during the lifetime of this Parliament into this kind of activity and why we announced in the Autumn Statement that we would add to that another £77 million, which we reckon will bring in £2 billion. The other important thing, in addition to this equalisation of technical expertise, if you like, is that consumers should continue to shine a spotlight on companies that may not be paying the amount of tax that most people would think is reasonable.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I support, dot and comma, everything that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said. The three amendments in this group are couched in prudent terms that give discretion to the FCA to recognise the fact that, to use the adage, one size does not fit all. If there is in this world one great gulf, it is between some of the more sophisticated, City-type deposit funds and, at the other side of the sea, those of charities. The discretion is confined expressly to charities, or funds, I should say, established under the Charities Act 1960, the Charities Act 1993 or the Charities Act 2011, which, in my view, provides the necessary reassurance that this cannot be a horse that runs wild. I hope, therefore, that the Government will feel free to accept this group of amendments.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I have just discovered that I need to declare an interest in relation to these amendments. I have been looking at the small number of existing CDFs, and I see that one of them is the Church of England Deposit Fund, which I suspect is a significant part of the Church of England’s investment. This almost certainly means that my wife’s pension depends on this fund doing well. So, speaking personally, I have every incentive to ensure that these funds are appropriately regulated. In any event, I was minded to declare an interest.

I shall take the amendments in turn. In his report on the review of the Charities Act 2006, my noble friend recommended that:

“Regulation of Common Investment and Common Deposit Funds should pass from the Charity Commission to the FSA, as the Commission does not have the expertise to regulate what are primarily financial products (albeit only available to charities)”.

He has set out today why he has concerns that the regulatory approach by the PRA or FCA may not be appropriate for these very specific structures. The amendments would require the regulators to set out, as part of their consultation, where they see rules or requirements having a particular impact on CIFs or CDFs, and gives the Treasury the power to disapply requirements that apply to collective investment schemes. I will briefly set out why I think that these amendments are not appropriate or necessary, while agreeing absolutely with the thrust of my noble friend’s sentiments about them.

First, we do not believe that they are appropriate because they pre-empt the decision on whether the regulation of CIFs and CDFs should be transferred to the FSA, and later the new regulators. The Government have not yet responded to my noble friend’s report, and I do not want to use this debate on one of his proposals to pre-empt the full and proper response to the report as a whole which the Government will publish soon. In addition, in his report my noble friend notes that the Treasury,

“is already considering how best to reform the regulation of CIFs and CDFs as part of their work to implement the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive (AIFMD), and as part of this are considering possible legislative opportunities”.

That is, of course, correct and the Government will therefore set out their position on this matter when they consult on their approach on implementing the AIFMD early in the new year and respond to my noble friend’s report at that point.

I do not think that these amendments are necessary or appropriate even if the regulation of these funds moves across to the FCA. They are not necessary because the regulator already has to take a proportionate approach, sensitive to the needs and goals of different types of financial institutions and the needs and objectives of different consumers. Earlier on Report we debated and approved two government amendments requiring the FCA to have regard to the differing expectations of different consumers and to the desirability of exercising its functions in a way that recognises the differences in the nature and objectives of different businesses. While we were talking at that point principally about various social investment vehicles, the thoughts and principles which underlay our tabling of those amendments apply equally to these amendments; namely, that this is a specific small sector that needs to be dealt with differently from the rest of regulation and that the FCA needs to know from the start that it is expected to show sensitivity and proportionality in dealing with these different and rather unusual categories. That is what our amendments seek to achieve and we are confident that they will have that effect.

The regulators will have other tools to consider the needs of individual institutions, such as the ones that we are talking about under these amendments. For example, they can issue a waiver from a rule, meaning that a particular firm does not have to comply with a requirement, or issue a modification to a rule that enables the applicant to comply with an amended rule that better fits its own circumstances. All applications for waivers or modifications are considered on their individual merits, and there is no reason why rules that apply appropriately to other, larger and different sorts of funds should necessarily apply to the funds that we are discussing now, because the waiver can be brought into effect. There is therefore no need to give the Treasury the kind of power envisaged by Amendment 116A, which would cut across the independence of the regulator. I hope that I have been able to persuade my noble friend that we are sympathetic to what he is seeking to achieve and that we believe that the amendments we have put into the Bill will achieve the objectives that he is seeking. I hope that, in the light of that, he will feel able to withdraw his amendments.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

It is not all over the place because people who are investing in these products are doing so for different motives. They are doing so because they want a project to be successful and to achieve a social outcome. That is not the kind of product that one normally associates with a product that is limited to sophisticated investors, so I think that the noble Lord is talking about two different sorts of products entirely. Very often, the products that are marketed to sophisticated investors have the attraction that, if all goes well, they will bring a larger than average rate of return. Nobody expects the kind of products we are talking about here ever to be generating vast returns for anybody; that is not their purpose. The purpose is to get new money into socially desirable areas of activity. There is a distinction and I hope that he is persuaded that we are not all over the place.

Although I was beguiled, as always, by my noble friend Lord Phillips’ comments about my accepting Amendment 31, I am sorry that I am not able to do so. I think that our amendment does the business.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am terribly sorry to interrupt my noble friend. He says that Amendment 26 does the business. With respect, Amendment 31 is a very gritty one: it simply gives the Government of the day the chance to amend, or add to, the crucial provisions by order. Surely that is desirable, because we wait to see how all this is going to work out.

[Lord Newby]

Yes, we do indeed, but the government amendment is broader and gives considerable flexibility to the FCA in the way that it deals with this new mandate.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, raised the question of what happens if consumers have unrealistic expectations, and she thought that this could, in effect, be a dangerous amendment. I do not think that it is, because I do not believe that this is the way that the amendment will be interpreted by the FCA when it looks at products in this area and gives advice about them. While I can see where she gets the arguments from, I am confident that the FCA will ensure that we do not have the kind of dangerous consequences which she mentions.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Newby

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I hesitate to trouble the House with a further intervention—

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, perhaps I may remind noble Lords that the rules of the House are that on Report, Members speak once on an amendment.