Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

The Committee will be grateful to the noble Lord for that declaration of interest.

I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on being the first speaker in this debate to mention Dickens, in this bicentenary of his death. I was wondering how long it would be before Jarndyce v Jarndyce appeared, and assure him that I was about to mention it. Although the noble Lord says that this has been only eight years in gestation, as my noble friend Lord Phillips put it, if we go back to a case that I was not familiar with but which is no doubt up on the wall in the noble Lord’s lavatory, Bouch v Sproule, that was some 125 years—so it has been going on for a considerable amount of time.

I hope to deal with some of the points that have been raised, but give an assurance to the House that this is the beginning of proceedings. We have rather a good form of procedure before us for these Law Commission Bills, which will allow this Bill to be properly scrutinised later on in Committee. Another place will also scrutinise the Bill properly—as it always does—in due course. I am sure we do it slightly better, but another place will have its role to play. I can give that assurance to my noble friend Lord Higgins—this is not some odd procedure whereby the Bill comes only to this House. It will go to another place in due course.

The first point that came up was raised by my noble friend Lord Phillips about Clause 3 and the discretion that is available to the trustees. What qualification was there for that discretion and might there be some alarm among trustees about whether they could be liable for how they exercise it?

I say to my noble friend that the Bill has so far been very carefully constructed. It has been looked at by many people of much greater erudition than me and, possibly, of even greater erudition than my noble friend. They have taken these points into consideration but the great advantage of this procedure is that we can look again as the Bill goes through the House. It is certainly something to which my noble friend might want to come back in Committee when we get to that stage, at which point our mutual noble friend Lord McNally will be dealing with the Bill for the Government. It will be a matter for that Committee.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Can I take it that the Minister will be happy for consultation with his officials to take place on this matter?

[Lord Henley]

Obviously, we are always more than happy for there to be consultation before, during and whenever to deal with these matters. They ought to be looked at and that is how we get the right result in the end on all Bills. It is something that we would more than encourage. I am sure the noble Lord will be in touch with the officials, and that he has already spoken to them, the Charity Commission and the Law Commission at some stage.

I move on to my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s concerns about whether the regulations in Clause 4, particularly the total return investment regulations in new Section 104B, will be too restrictive. Again, this is a matter that we will need to look at in some detail. However, it is a matter that the Charity Commission should be able to get right following consultation. I am certainly confident that it will strive to ensure that the regulations achieve just the right level of trusting the trustees to get things right and protecting charity funds. It is a matter that I hope the House will look at in detail.

I understand my noble friend’s concerns about English cathedrals and that he raised the matter at the Peers’ briefing in March. As a result of ongoing discussions at official level between the Ministry of Justice, the Law Commission, the Charity Commission and the Church Commissioners, they are all looking at the issue. In essence, the Association of English Cathedrals, which represents all the corporate bodies of our 42 cathedrals, has asked that Clause 4 be extended to include the cathedrals in its scope. The association considers that this would benefit the 20 or so cathedrals that have permanent endowment. That would put those English cathedrals on the same footing as the Welsh cathedrals. However, unlike cathedrals in Wales, cathedrals in England are not subject to the general regulation of the Charity Commission. The Government will consider the request from the Association of English Cathedrals carefully, but at present no final decision has been taken.

I cannot remember whether it was on this issue or another that my noble friend speculated as to whether the word “Resist” appeared in my briefing. I can assure him that it does not, although it might appear later as we discuss these matters further. However, this is not really a matter for the Government to resist; it is a matter for all of us to make sure that we get right. Again, I stress that this is not a government Bill; it is a Law Commission Bill, which we are ensuring gets on to the statute book.

My noble friend also asked about social impact and mixed-motive investment. The Government acknowledge that social or mixed-purpose investment is a highly important issue and are grateful to the noble Lord for drawing attention to it, both today and as part of the work of his ongoing review of charity law. The Government’s ambition is that social investment should become a major source of finance for the social sector. To this end, the Cabinet Office’s social investment team is working with other government departments to make this vision a reality. Social or mixed-purpose investment did not, however, form any part of the Law Commission’s work on capital and income in trusts and therefore has not been included in the Bill, by the Law Commission in its report or by the Ministry of Justice in its consultation. Therefore, at this stage we would not want to see anything further added.

I have already dealt with the question from my noble friend Lord Higgins as to whether the Bill will go to the Commons. I can give that assurance. My noble friend also asked whether it will apply only to new trusts, which I think was a question also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I can give an assurance that the reform is prospective only. We believe that retrospective interference with existing trusts could frustrate the intention of the person who created the trust, contrary to the general principles of trust law. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, reminded us, in any drafting of trusts that he has been doing over the last however many years, he has been excluding the rules in Howe v Earl of Dartmouth and others, just as, I imagine, most practitioners have been doing.

My noble friend Lord Higgins also asked about the letter and whether there was going to be any effect on small and medium-sized businesses. We believe that it is unlikely to have a major effect on small and medium-sized enterprises. However, the impact assessment published by the Ministry of Justice states:

“While a reduction in the complexity of the current legal rules may lead to a very marginal reduction in trust related business for small legal firms and trust service suppliers, this is expected to be more than offset by reduced costs for trusts. Small legal firms and trust service suppliers may also benefit from additional business if there is an increase in the number of charities operating total return investment … We do not consider that the Bill is likely to have a disproportionate impact on the operations and performance of small businesses compared to others”.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Thursday 15th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s reply. I let his officials have a copy of what I was going to say an hour or so in advance of this Committee so that it was not a complete surprise to them all. I shall need a little time to absorb the response. I have to be frank and say that on a number of issues, at first flush, I was not convinced. But the best way forward, if the Minister agrees, is that we have a conflab outside this Chamber on any points that have residual concern. I was not intending to divide the House at this stage in any event but no doubt he will afford me access to his Bill team so that we can sort anything out if it needs it.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, it would be right that we should sit down and discuss this, and I would welcome a chance to arrange a meeting with my noble friend. It is technical and difficult stuff. My noble friend Lady Hamwee referred to it as hot-towel-around-the-head stuff. I think it might be almost more cold-towel-and-a-lot-of-black-coffee stuff. But whatever happens, we have to discuss it and we will certainly try to do so.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am grateful to the Minister, although I would prefer whisky. I certainly accept what he said and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, mentions the Sub-Treasurer of the Inner Temple and assures the Committee that he does not think that he would act improperly in any way. I hope he would extend that to the Under Treasurer of the Middle Temple, my own Inn, because I am sure she would act in an equally proper manner. I see my noble friend Lord Faulks, who I think is a bencher of the Middle Temple, nodding in agreement on that matter.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I give him that assurance from my heart.

[Lord Henley]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I hope I can deal with some of his queries, and I hope I can assure him that I do not believe that the drafting here is opaque in any way whatever.

When we look at Clause 33(5), it is pretty clear that we have all the classes listed in paragraphs (a) to (j), including the Council of the Isles of Scilly, the Common Council of the City of London and, in effect, all local authorities. Then we have paragraph (k), which states,

“any person specified or described by the Secretary of State in an order made by statutory instrument”.

That is as clear as clear could be that it can be extended by the Secretary of State after consultation with the appropriate people who might be affected. Those people could be public, they could be private, or whatever.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

The Minister will have observed that Clause 33(2) states:

“A failure on the part of any person to act in accordance”,

with the code. That does not seem to sit comfortably with the much wider interpretation in the same clause of the same phrase.

[Lord Henley]

No, my Lords, it is very clear. In Clause 1, we are talking about any “relevant authority” and relevant authorities are listed in subsection (5). That could be extended. If it was extended, to use “relevant authority” in subsection (2) would not include paragraph (k) of subsection (5). The noble Lord is making a mountain out of a molehill. As I understand it, it is quite clear. Should it be extended, it would then be:

“A failure on the part of any person to act in accordance with the provision”;

“person” in its legal sense would include paragraphs (a) to (j), but would also include paragraph (k) if my right honourable friend had extended those who are covered by it by using subsection 5(k) so to do.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I promise that this will be my last intervention, but it is important to get this as right as we can. I am afraid the Minister’s argument does not hold because Clause 33(5) starts by saying:

“In this section ‘relevant authority’ means”,

and that includes any extension under paragraph (k). I put that to him, and I would be grateful if he would review this later.

Phone Hacking

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I repeat what I said earlier: we will consider the results of this report and make the appropriate response at that stage.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept the gravamen of the Justice report last month—a comprehensive report into hacking of all sorts—that this issue goes far, far wider than the press? Will the Government kindly consider reviewing the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act to try to bring it up to date and make it effective?

Oak Processionary Moth

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, however many feet we have on the ground, I do not think it would be possible for any government agency to cover the entire country in terms of the number of oaks there are and the number of oak processionary moths that might be processing around the country. All I am saying is that that particular outbreak was discovered in the summer of 2006. The Government moved as quickly as they could, but obviously they could not get on top of it. They managed to get on top of the outbreaks in Leeds and Sheffield and we have found no more two years after the attempt to eradicate them.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, would my noble friend take note of very recent research which indicates that there is a green health element not just in oak woods but in all our hardwoods? They are uniquely beneficial to many people suffering from psychological and mental ill health. Might this not therefore be an urgent issue that should be addressed more specifically than may be the case at present?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is another question, but I agree that trees are good for us. That is why we want, if possible, to eradicate or contain the oak processionary moth so that our oaks can flourish.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

Indeed, because the boundary moves. If the noble Lord remembers correctly, that legislation allowed the Scottish Government to have an interest in English matters relating to some rivers’ tributaries and vice versa. With England and Wales, the case is different. I do not know the answer to the noble Baroness’s question about the powers of the Welsh Assembly Government but I shall certainly write to her in due course.

In the intervening years since 1962, the British Waterways Board has done an excellent job in transforming what was a very run-down industrial transportation network, with its roots in the industrial revolution, into a hugely valuable environmental, heritage and leisure asset, but it is one which still—again, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Greenway, for stressing this—also carries some freight, so it continues to have a commercial operation. Its network consists of some 2,200 miles of historic canals, rivers and docks, and it is visited by some 13 million people a year. Again, as I think noble Lords have made clear, it provides benefits that range from not just freight, which has been mentioned, but flood relief and sanctuary for wildlife, as well as its users, through to employment and recreational facilities for walkers and others.

The intention behind setting up a new waterways charity—and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, for stressing that the previous Government were thinking of something along very similar lines—is to give waterways users and the communities alongside them greater involvement in how waterways are managed, thus contributing to their sustainability in the longer term. Moving the powers, functions and assets of British Waterways to civil society through the creation of what we would like to think of as a sort of national trust—a phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw—for the waterways will allow key stakeholders the opportunity to play a role in their governance and allow them to bring their expertise and passion to the organisation. Providing greater engagement by local communities will, we believe, lead to a range of enhanced public benefits, including green travel to work, health and well-being, support for inner cities and rural regeneration.

As I have mentioned governance, it is worth stressing that the consultation includes proposals for governance on the charitable company model. Subject to the passage of this Bill through Parliament, there will be further consultation on the draft order or orders—I cannot remember whether there is one or more than one—required to transfer the duties and functions of British Waterways to that organisation. However, in relation to the questions that the noble Baroness asked, following on from the speech of her noble friend Lord Hunt in relation to Clause 5, I hope she will await a response from my noble friend which, I am assured by him, will come before we get to Report stage.

There are obvious concerns over funding, particularly in the light of what has been, as we know, a very tight spending review settlement—and I will not say again why it has been so. British Waterways’ funding has seen a reduction in line with other bodies that are attached to Defra and to other parts of government. It is no greater because British Waterways is becoming a charity. We recognise, however, that the move to a charity will require a long-term contract for continued government support, and we have given a commitment to maintain levels in line with the spending review until 2022-23. That will obviously be subject to—

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Is the Minister quite sure that the ambition that the Government will have for this new charity can be assumed by it under charity law? Charity law is singularly unsympathetic to external control and direction.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is somewhat more experienced in charity law than me, and I am going to be very careful when responding so as not to put my foot in it.

We believe that the charitable model—and this is, again, one of the reasons we will be consulting on governance—will be suitable and will operate in the right way. The Government are giving an assurance that they will continue to meet until 2022-23 the funding commitment I was stressing when my noble friend interrupted, and that is a commitment we can make. I very much hope that the charitable body that is created, after the appropriate decisions have been made and after the consultation, will meet the requirements that the noble Lord is addressing.

I hope I have given appropriate assurance to my noble friend. If I have not, I will write in greater detail in due course. I want to emphasise, however, that that spending review commitment is until 2022-23, which I understand is a pretty long time for any Government to commit to, but obviously it is subject to negotiation with the incoming trustees of the body when it is created.

In order to create a successful new waterways charity for the future, most of British Waterways’s existing statutory functions will need to be transferred to that new charity. For example, we would want British Waterways’ duty to keep the waterways in good repair to be transferred. That is why we had to list it in Schedule 5. It is a matter I imagine my noble friend will be able to deal with in the letter he has promised.

Having dealt with most of the concerns that have been put by noble Lords, may I just say a little about Amendment 99A that will be formally moved later on? This amendment disapplies the provision in Clause 21(2) to enable the transfer of the statutory functions of British Waterways and the Environment Agency to this new waterways charity.

Clause 21(2) provides an important legislative safeguard to prevent the transfer of functions to commercial companies or privatisation by the back door. This important safeguard, however, also prevents the transfer of the British Waterways and Environment Agency statutory functions and assets to civil society and, hence, the creation of a new waterways charity. This amendment will, therefore, enable the new waterways charity to receive important statutory regulatory functions, such as the power of entry on land to enable the carrying out of works on inland waterways for repair, maintenance, alteration, renewal or protection, that will be required for the safe and effective operation of the waterways. It will also enable the Government to deliver their vision for that national trust from 2015, with the transfer of the Environment Agency’s navigation functions into the new waterways charity after the next spending review.

The Government will fully consult on their proposals for the new waterways charity, as I have assured the Committee, over the next few weeks. That consultation will be supported by considerable stakeholder engagement. The Inland Waterways Advisory Council has indicated that it will respond to the consultation before it is wound down.

Finally, could I stress that it is a matter for the Scottish Government that they wish to maintain British Waterways across the border in its current form. One of the advantages of devolution is that different parts of the kingdom can behave differently; that is a matter for them. I reassure the noble Baroness that I will write to her about the Welsh Assembly Government and her concern whether they should or should not have these powers. I do not know whether they were a matter for the referendum that was completed some time ago.

I hope, with those assurances, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, will feel able to withdraw his amendments.

Agriculture: Dairy Industry

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Monday 7th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not sure at the moment where the groceries code adjudicator will be sitting, but I can assure the noble Earl that he will sit somewhere where he can do the job that he will be asked to do as effectively as possible.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, will the Minister also look at the impact of predatory pricing on small, local convenience shops, which make a great contribution to their communities?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is obviously a matter that ought to be looked at but I think everyone should welcome the fact that supermarkets deliver low prices not only for milk but for other matters as well. The consumer would welcome that.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Henley

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, we will come to the final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, when we get to Amendment 86. I offer my congratulations to the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Berkeley, on avoiding the whole wider question of the British Waterways Board, which we will deal with at that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked whether this was part of my brief. I can confirm by shaking my head that it is not part of my brief within the department. I will certainly discuss the matter with my honourable friend Mr Benyon. He might be prepared to take on dangerous dogs and in return I could have waterways. I could spend the weeks and months ahead cruising the waterways and avoiding this House until my noble friend the Chief Whip brings me back to reality. I make that point because it is important to remember, as other noble Lords have pointed out, the importance of the waterways and canals to all of us. Again, as I implied in my remark to the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner and Lord Berkeley, that is a wider question, which we will come to when we get to Amendment 86, which I do not suppose we will reach tonight.

We are debating not the British Waterways Board but the Inland Waterways Advisory Council. I want to make it clear that, after careful consideration, the department, the Government and Ministers have decided that they no longer need a statutory arm’s-length body to help to develop policy for the inland waterways. Although the Inland Waterways Advisory Council has provided very useful input, policy development is rightly the role of government departments and Ministers working closely with delivery bodies and stakeholder representatives, including such bodies as the Association of Inland Navigation Authorities, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Phillips and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. We will continue to develop closer working relationships with all waterways interests. That will enable Ministers to benefit from more direct and tailored input into policy development.

Our proposal to move the British Waterways Board into civil society in April 2012 will also mean that, for the future, the Government will no longer need an organisation to provide advice on policy development. The Government and navigation authorities need to engage with stakeholders directly in the design, implementation and management of the new structure. The Government’s decision has been discussed with the chairman of the Inland Waterways Advisory Council and individual members of that authority have been notified.

That decision does not indicate that we will place any less emphasis on the importance of inland waterways. Indeed, the department will be more directly involved as it seeks to place inland waterways on a more sustainable footing through our work towards moving the British Waterways Board from being a public corporation, as has been mentioned, to a new charity in civil society. As I said, we will discuss that when we come to Amendment 86. For that reason, we do not think it necessary to continue to have the Inland Waterways Advisory Council. Noble Lords asked in simple terms how long it would stay around. We will consider precisely how long we need to keep the body in place when we have the results of the consultation on the British Waterways Board, which will be under way fairly soon.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I do not understand. Did my noble friend say that after the British Waterways Board is made an independent charity the Government would not need to have a policy in relation to inland waterways? If I have that wrong and the Government will still need a policy in relation to inland waterways—and it seems to me that they will—I still do not see what is wrong with this body as the conduit for that.

[Lord Henley]

The Government will always need to have a policy on these and a great deal of other matters, but policy should be a matter for the department, Ministers and the Government and not for a body such as this. Therefore, we do not see that it is necessary in the future. I cannot give a precise time as to when this body will disappear. That will be part of the wider consultation on the British Waterways Board and what we propose to create there. That, as I said, is something that we will discuss on a later amendment. With that explanation of our intentions, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.