Gaza

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Baroness Warsi

Monday 14th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I agree that the actions of Hamas in no way add towards bringing this matter to an end. Nor, indeed, do they add to the peace. In fact, the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel means this matter is prolonged and made much worse. However, it is important for us to hold on to positive moments, such as the one the noble Lord referred to: the moment when Prime Minister Netanyahu rang the father of the boy who was tragically burnt. We should also hold on to the positive moment when President Abbas said he would give all the support he could to ensure Israel found the kidnappers and killers of the three teenagers. It is important that we hold on to those small positive moments, even in these difficult times.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, the question I ask may be provocative to some, as I take a diametrically different view to that of, for example, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Therefore, I first make absolutely clear my total commitment to the right of Israel to exist in peace behind its borders, and make clear that the rights in this convoluted and awful area of the world are not all on one side—not by a long chalk. At the same time, I have been to the West Bank and Gaza four times in the past 12 years, and I have seen for myself the quite appalling circumstance in which the Gazans live. It is not just the Gazans; the people of the West Bank live in a state of permanent humiliation, with the occupying army of Israel, the check-points and all the rest of it.

I ask my noble friend this question. Nowhere in the Statement—it was quite a long one—does one find any reference to the overriding strategic injustice in the region. Israel is not content to exist within the borders set by the United Nations, not forgetting that no one asked the Palestinians; vast numbers of them were pushed out. As I say, I support totally the right of Israel to exist peacefully, but the truth of the matter is, for the last—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

The question will come soon. Does she not agree that the constant, tenacious determination of Israel to colonise the West Bank—one is told that nearly half a million colonists live in that country and often take the greater part of the resources, water and so on—is the casus belli in this situation? I know from speaking to its leader, Dr Haniyeh, that Hamas withheld any rocket attacks and violence at all for several years, but the extremists in Gaza had to put up with provocation that the Israelis, if the positions were reversed, would not contemplate. Is it not time we said to Israel that we will not go on countenancing this colonisation and, unless they stop it, we, in conjunction with other members of the European Union, will have to apply sanctions to them?

[Baroness Warsi]

I suppose the issue that I take with my noble friend is this: it is important we do not draw parallels between Hamas and the Israeli Government, or indeed try to describe them in a way where we treat them as having equal responsibility. On the one hand, we are dealing with an organisation that is considered to be a terrorist organisation, on the other a state that is a liberal democracy. Israel would be horrified to feel it was being judged by the standards of Hamas.

On the specific issue of settlements that my noble friend raises, we have repeatedly condemned Israel’s announcement to expand settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, including in east Jerusalem. We have consistently said that, as well as being illegal under international law, settlements undermine the possibility of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and those who are working for a sustainable peace.

Israel and Palestine

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I know the noble Lord has written to me on a number of occasions in relation to this matter. Like him and all Members of this House, I would like the Middle East peace process resolved. We would like to see a secure Israel living alongside a secure and viable Palestinian state. We continue to urge that negotiations are the best route to achieve a solution that ends the conflict once and for all. Secretary Kerry’s tireless efforts provide a real opportunity to achieve that goal. Therefore, we are urging both parties to show the leadership that is needed to seize this moment.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

Does my noble friend accept that the negotiations are doomed, and that Mr Netanyahu and his Cabinet know that they are doomed, so long as Israel goes on colonising the West Bank illegally and relentlessly? Is that not the reality, and what are we going to do about it?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the situation on the ground continues to change. That is why I have stood at this Dispatch Box on a number of occasions over the past 12 months and said that this provides a unique opportunity to try to make progress. We support the discussions that Secretary Kerry is leading, and we urge both sides, who have said that they are still prepared to talk, to get back to the table to try to achieve a resolution.

Iran

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

Of course the noble Baroness is right. Supreme Leader Khamenei still has a huge amount of influence in many spheres of life in Iran. She is right to say that the human rights situation in Iran is dire. In 2012 there were reports of over 350 executions and 162 executions as of May this year. It has more journalists in prison than almost any other country. Opposition leaders remain detained in prison after two years. We have real human rights and other concerns in Iran. We are open to improving this relationship, and there have been opportunities when officials have met, such as during the E3+3 talks, but it is important, as the noble Baroness says, to remain cautious.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, would my noble friend not accept that it is precisely because of the permanent history of Iran and its human rights infractions that we should support the president just elected? He showed considerable courage in his election campaign and would be immensely supported in his undoubted wish to move away from the dark side of Iranian life if we were to restore diplomatic relations without preconditions.

[Baroness Warsi]

I understand my noble friend’s points, but the one thing that I and most of us who have been involved in foreign policy realise is that the situation is never black or white. There are always many grey areas, as is the case here. The new president has made some positive remarks, but it is important that they are translated into action. However, I can assure my noble friend and other noble Lords that we have contact with the Iranians. For example, last year at the Heart of Asia conference, as part of the discussions on Afghanistan, the Foreign Secretary met Foreign Minister Salehi in the margins of the meeting. There are therefore opportunities for discussions to take place, even at the highest level. However, in terms of restarting diplomatic relations and having an embassy—which, let us not forget, was ransacked in 2011 and where our officials and staff came under attack—it is important that we do so cautiously.

EU: United Kingdom

Debate between Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Baroness Warsi

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point but I do not intend to trade academic reports from the Dispatch Box. However, if he has the time, I shall be happy to give him a briefing on the economic importance of our continued membership of the EU.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister accept that the EU is hugely complicated and that by and large the citizens of this country have only a very partial understanding both of its status quo and of the arguments that now go on in this place? Can the Government do anything about reducing that gap in understanding?

[Baroness Warsi]

It is important that there is further and better understanding of Britain’s role in the European Union as well as the role of the European Union in the interests of Britain. However, there are certain matters that the public are entirely clear about. They were raised by all the political parties during the last general election, and they were that no further powers should pass to the European Union without the say-so of the British people. The coalition Government took that on board and it is why we introduced a referendum lock as part of the European Union Act passed last year.