Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Monday 21st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I find myself in a strange position, because I agree in part with the amendment moved by the noble Earl and in part with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, although that is not a solution.

I agree with the noble Earl that we need to find a way of reconfiguring NHS services. That reconfiguration cannot just be done through dealing with failing hospitals. It must include other hospitals which currently seem to be delivering good-quality services. We have to find a way out of that. The question is therefore whether the amendment allows us to move forward with reconfiguring NHS services. This is where I find myself more in tune with the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that it may not and that more is required.

Another concern I have is that the commissioners may express views. I would like some explanation of why the commissioners of the NHS foundation trust are to be treated separately from those who commission services from other hospitals. Another issue is that, if the commissioners disagree, NHS England would make the decision. That means that, ipso facto, they will agree with a special administrator—or they will not. In that case, what happens?

Another issue is consultation. Clearly, none of the configuration can occur smoothly unless the public are consulted. At what point will the special administrator consult both the public served by the failing hospital and the public served by the hospital that is not failing but whose services may require reconfiguration?

In summary, therefore, there is a need for amendments that will allow us to move forward with the reconfiguration of services throughout England. In that respect, I am with the noble Earl, but I wonder if he needs to go a bit further. He might consider looking at this further and tabling more amendments at a later stage.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, there is of course quite a long process still to be gone through on the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has said, it seems clear that there is a serious problem. It occurs to me that the special administrator’s primary emphasis will be on the trust to which he or she has been appointed. It is also obvious that changes to one trust may affect neighbouring trusts. Some solution to the problems in the special administrator’s trust may rely on something done in a neighbouring trust.

On the other hand, in that situation it is extremely important that concentration on the problems of the neighbouring trust is given considerable emphasis. Otherwise, the situation may be distorted by too great an emphasis on the special administrator’s trust at the expense of neighbouring trusts brought in to try to help. I wonder whether the wise course might be for us to accept the amendment, in so far as it goes, with an undertaking that, as the Bill proceeds in the other place, that matter would be seriously considered.

This may be an opportunity for legislation that will not quickly arise again. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, there is a serious problem and it might not be wise to put it off indefinitely. I can see the difficulties and understand the situation of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, but it is very difficult to see how to sort this out today. On the other hand, it might be unwise to lose the opportunity to take a step forward in the hope of improving the situation in later stages of this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Patel]

I concur with what the noble Lord, Lord Willis of Knaresborough, just said. All of the research councils and charities support these amendments. There are the caveats to which he referred, particularly related to clinical trials and data. There is another important issue about the summary given at the conclusion of the research, which not only has to protect the confidentiality of the patients but also needs to be brief, because otherwise it is too cumbersome. On the whole, these amendments that we debated long and hard are most welcome.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I also agree with the view that these are important headings. The precise detail has been mentioned by the noble Lord. Regarding paragraph (c) of Amendment 167, I think that access to the data is quite important although it requires consideration. It is important that the experiment or trial can be repeated. One of the difficulties in the past has sometimes been the announcement of research findings. When those in the same area tried to find out exactly what the findings were based on, there was some difficulty in repeating the experiment and occasionally there was something seriously wrong with the research. Therefore, access to the data certainly has to be kept in view if one is going to have proper transparency. However, I accept that, like paragraph (c) of Amendment 167 and the other paragraphs, it requires an amount of restriction in certain cases.