Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Wednesday 9th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

That is a massive question. The short answer is that because universal credit is a much more efficient benefit to administer, we are able, in practice, to put more people on the front line to support those who we need to support. The department has been working very hard, with very precise ways of helping quite a lot of new people doing quite a lot of new things; work progression is one part of that and disability another.

The changes I have been talking about will be accompanied by new funding of up to £100 million per year by 2020-21, which is part of where the money is coming from, to help claimants with limited capability but some potential for work to move closer to the labour market and, when they are ready, to get back into work. We will provide more details on this kind of support next year. In the Autumn Statement, the Government announced an increase of nearly 15% to help people with health conditions return to and remain in work.

There is a great deal of interest in this House and elsewhere about how we will make this employment offer. We will set up a task force, which will include external experts, disabled people and disabled people’s organisations to make sure that we do this in the best possible way.

In this context, I will pick up one other point from the noble Lord, Lord Low, who said that the Work Programme had failed disabled claimants. More generally, the Work Programme clearly has had some astonishing outcomes. In this area, it has taken a group that is traditionally very difficult to get into work and, in the latest cohort, it has got one in 13 people into work for at least three months since joining the scheme. That figure is higher than the expected level of one in 14, and has effectively doubled since the Work Programme started. Then, when it was trying to find its way into what was working, the figure was one in 25.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, raised the issue of mental health, which has been of acute concern to us for a number of years and is an issue that I personally have pushed for five and a half years now. We now have a programme of £43 million over the next three years to build our evidence on what works for those who have been long-term unemployed and have mental health conditions. A range of pilot schemes is going through to test what actually works. I am enormously proud of getting that kind of money to this kind of issue, which I suspect has been but a dream for previous Ministers in my position.

Let me address the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, which seeks to do two things. First, it requires the Secretary of State to publish a report, before subsections (2) and (3) come into force, on the impact that these provisions will have on those affected by the change, particularly the impact on a person’s health, finances and ability to return to work. A similar amendment was laid and debated in the other place. We have, of course, already published our assessment of the impacts, which was made available on 20 July. I can assure noble Lords that the Government are committed to a fair tax and welfare system, and that every individual policy change is carefully considered. How the changes affect individuals will depend on their circumstances, including the nature of their illness or disability, which can vary considerably.

I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that the proportion of people in relative poverty who live in a family where someone is disabled has actually fallen since 2010. PIP is the benefit that provides a contribution towards some of the extra costs arising from a long-term health condition, and that is protected. I know that the noble Lord is particularly concerned about the effect of this change on people with cancer. I am delighted to be able to confirm that the vast majority of people with cancer claiming ESA are in the support group. This includes anyone who is either preparing for, receiving or recovering from chemotherapy or radiotherapy that will significantly limit their ability to work. Only a small proportion of individuals whose initial diagnosis is cancer will be placed in the WRAG. Employment can obviously play a vital part in supporting an individual’s recovery. Macmillan itself recognises this and stated in a report:

“Many people who are working when they are diagnosed with cancer would prefer to remain in work, or return to their job, during or after treatment”.

I will pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, and my noble friend Lord Blencathra about Parkinson’s. On its website, Parkinson’s UK recognises that many people with Parkinson’s continue to work for many years after their diagnosis, although to do so they may need changes to the way in which they work. I also need to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, that no one who has motor neurone disease is currently in the WRAG.

As other noble Lords have mentioned, we are now committed to replacing Work Choice and the Work Programme with a combined work and health programme, so the support systems should now start to ratchet up, benefiting from the considerable amount that we have learned in the last few years.

There is a large body of evidence to show that work is generally good for physical and mental well-being and that, where their health condition permits, sick and disabled people should be encouraged and supported to remain in or to re-enter work as soon as possible. That is why an important part of this change is the extra resource that we are putting into support to help bring that about.

The second part of the amendment seeks to require that any regulations made under this section of the Bill be made under the affirmative procedure. However, as these measures are being debated extensively throughout the passage of the Bill, I am not convinced that requiring further debates in both Houses on the regulations is a necessary or, indeed, appropriate use of costly parliamentary time.

I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that those who move from support to WRAG will be protected. It will not be regarded as a new claim, as he asked.

I turn now to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Layard, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollins, Lady Tyler and Lady Howe, which seek to remove work rate requirements from claimants with a mental or behavioural disorder and refer them to IAPT. As already stated, there is a large and growing body of evidence over the last decade showing that work can keep people healthy as well as help promote recovery if someone falls ill. This includes mental health. By contrast, there is a strong link between those not in work and poor health. We also know that the majority of ESA claimants in the WRAG want to work.

At this point I would like thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Grey-Thompson, for the report that I received yesterday. They brought it to me, and I read it with great interest. I am particularly struck by the impact that being out of work has on people’s health—and that is, of course, the reason that we have announced our intention to have a White Paper. We will continue to monitor the impact of this change over time through regular national statistics.

Amendment 52 was spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Layard, and my noble friend Lord Lansley. We recognise the barriers that people can face, which is why we are committing these resources to help them find what works best for them. I agree that access—and particularly early access—to treatment services can be crucial to achieving recovery. I genuinely support this part of the agenda, and the noble Lord, Lord Layard, knows that I do, but I do not believe that this particular Bill is the right mechanism to achieve these ends. The Secretary of State does not have the power to offer NHS services to claimants. Even if he did have that power, devolved Governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have had power over the organisation and budgets of the NHS within their jurisdictions since 1999, so in practice this amendment would be constitutionally impossible.

I should like to conclude—noble Lords will be relieved to hear—by reminding the Committee that the Government committed in their manifesto to halving the disability employment gap and improving the support we provide to people with mental ill-health and long-term health conditions. The change to ESA and universal credit is an important part of that, so I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment and support the proposition that Clauses 13 and 14 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, we have now been talking for about two hours and seven minutes, with some 17 speakers. We cannot claim that we have not given enough time to this group. I do not want to prolong the discussion; I am tempted to take this opportunity to engage with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley—for which I have been waiting for a very long time—but I will wait a little longer. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part, whether they addressed my amendment or the other amendments. I sincerely appreciate very much—I say that on behalf of all of us—that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, does listen to us and his response at length demonstrates that. I am encouraged by some of the things he said relating to my amendment and cancer patients, but I hope that others might have felt that some of the things he said were encouraging. I have no doubt that there are others who did not. I, and, I am sure, others, will read very carefully what he said, encouraged by the White Paper. I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Health: Needlestick Injuries

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is important to make health and safety proportionate. This is a very particular problem. People cut themselves regularly. However, the issue is not that you cut yourself but that you infect yourself. The numbers are rather small, and it would be disproportionate to widen this out further than the directive because we already have well established safety procedures that are applicable more generally.

[Lord Patel]

Can the Minister clarify the employment status of people who are HIV carriers? As I understand it, the new regulation allows people who are carriers of HIV to work in the health service, including as surgeons.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am outside my personal sphere of expertise on that particular question. I will have to write on that matter.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I need to start by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who has done some astonishing work in this area in bringing the issues vividly to life. We certainly have learnt and have appreciated some of the things that he has said. I hope that I will be able to give him and the House some reassurance about the progress we have made on this.

As noble Lords will know, we are committed to improving the WCA so that it accurately identifies the individuals who should be in the support group where there is no time limiting and no questions. That is why we asked Professor Harrington and Macmillan Cancer Support to look at the way in which individuals being treated for cancer are assessed. That is why we have proposed changes and those changes are what we are consulting on now.

The intention of our proposals is to introduce a presumption that most people being treated for cancer should be in the support group unless the evidence indicates that, exceptionally, the debilitating effects of treatment are likely to be more limited. We would expect this to increase the number of individuals going into the support group and to reduce the number of people called to attend a face-to-face assessment. We have been working closely with Macmillan Cancer Support as part of the consultation and to understand if, following the consultation, there are further areas where improvements need to be made.

I can report to noble Lords that our discussions with Macmillan Cancer Support have been constructive. As a result we have reached agreement in the following three areas, which I hope will deal with some of the searching questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Patel. First, we have agreed that following the consultation we will work with Macmillan Cancer Support to develop the detailed guidance that underpins the regulations. Our aim is that the guidance should clearly specify the evidence required from a healthcare professional that would confirm presumption and allow immediate access to the support group without a face-to-face assessment. In our initial discussions we have agreed with Macmillan Cancer Support that evidence would be accepted from an oncologist, a GP or a specialist cancer nurse.

Secondly, we have agreed to review the guidance and process for people who are in the work-related activity group but whose condition deteriorates or relapses during the course of treatment so that they can access the support group quickly and smoothly. We would expect this to speed the process and reduce the need for face-to-face assessments. Thirdly, we have agreed with Macmillan Cancer Support to review the guidance for people who are in the recovery period following cancer treatment. That will ensure that individuals can remain in the support group for as long as appropriate during their recovery. Combining those three proposals will greatly improve the way we assess and support individuals suffering from cancer and reflect the particular challenges they face as a result of both the condition and the treatment.

As a result, we would expect that the majority of cancer patients are likely to be placed in the support group for the first six months while they undergo treatment. Following this, many are likely to have a further period in the support group while they recover from the residual effects of treatment. It could easily be up to a year therefore for many people with cancer before the clock starts running in relation to time-limiting. I know that the chief executive of Macmillan Cancer Support has welcomed these proposals and we look forward to working with his organisation following the consultation to help implement our proposals and to support people with cancer, where appropriate, to return to work.

Finally, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, on the WRAG, we are looking at this in the round and it would be unwise to pre-empt the consultation. But, clearly, we would want to be in a position where those in the WRAG are genuinely able to do work-related activity. As I have said, we now presume that most people will end up in the support group for an extended period. On the basis of what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very positive response. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, I pay tribute to the work Macmillan Cancer Support has done for cancer patients. To summarise, the Minister has been clear in accepting that the WCA assessment will be improved, that there will be a presumption that cancer patients in treatment will be in the support group, that discussions with Macmillan will continue following the consultation, and that guidance will be developed based on evidence from healthcare professionals to allow cancer patients either to remain in the WRAG or to go into the support group. He has also agreed to review guidance for patients in the WRAG so that if they deteriorate they can access the support group and to review guidance on the period of recovery following treatment. I have to say that it must be quite unusual to be content with the outcome on amendments on two successive days before two different Ministers. I thank the Minister very much for his summation. Cancer patients will be relieved. I am happy to withdraw the Motion.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, on a point of order, will the Minister confirm that we cannot amend regulations? He has asked us to give them consideration and committed to bringing them back, but whatever he brings back will have to be either accepted or rejected.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I hope that noble Lords by now have got a flavour of how I try to work with them. I listen and I take on board what people say. I will aim to shape the regulations in the light of that. I am more than happy to—

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, I speak in support of the amendments tabled by the Government in relation to Clauses 51 and 52—namely Amendments 33, 34, 37, 39, 40, 41, 43, and Amendments 63 to 67.

The important issue of the impact of time limiting on those with deteriorating conditions was raised in Grand Committee. I outlined in debate the existing safeguards which would protect people in these circumstances. However, when we looked again at the safeguarding provisions, it was clear that a person would be able to requalify only in very limited circumstances. In light of that helpful debate, we have decided that further clarification should be provided on the face of the Bill and are therefore moving these amendments.

The government amendments will enable people whose contributory ESA, while in the WRAG, has ceased as a result of time limiting, to requalify for an award of ESA if, after their award ends, they continue to have, or are treated as having, limited capability for work, and—I stress this point—at any time thereafter they develop and continue to have limited capability for work-related activity and would become eligible for the support group. The substance of this new category of entitlement is found in Amendment 43, which provides for claimants to have further entitlement after time limiting has been applied to an award of contributory ESA. I note with pleasure that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Morgan and Lady Meacher, have added their names in support of Amendment 43.

Without wishing to anticipate or foreshadow the debate on Amendment 42, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord McKenzie, I trust that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, having lent his support to Amendment 43, may feel able not to proceed with Amendment 42. I shall endeavour to explain why shortly.

I turn to the remainder of the government amendments in this group. In previous versions of the Bill, the time-limiting provisions for ESA youth appeared in Clause 52. As a result of the amendments, we have moved to provide for new entitlement to contributory ESA through deterioration, and it has been necessary to amend how the time limiting of ESA youth awards will work to provide for the new deterioration category. This is because we wish the category of further entitlement to ESA after deterioration to cover both claimants who deteriorate after their time-limited contributory ESA awards end and claimants who deteriorate after their time-limited ESA youth awards end. We have therefore moved amendments to provide for Clause 51 to deal with the time limiting of ESA youth awards where a claimant is in the work-related activity group. To be clear, the clauses as revised by the government amendments still have the effect that claimants awarded ESA on grounds of limited capability for work developed during youth will have their awards time limited, if the claimant is not in the support group.

Amendment 42 is similar in a number of respects to Amendment 43, and I think I can probably say was the inspiration in an earlier form for that amendment. However, the point is that Amendment 42 is less favourable than Amendment 43 in one important respect, as it states that a claimant must be assessed as having limited capability for work-related activity within five years of the termination of the first ESA award. The approach taken by the government amendments would not seek to put this time limit on the new form of entitlement to ESA for claimants whose condition deteriorates. We would allow a claimant to return to a contributory ESA award at any time after their time-limited award has ended, as long as they develop limited capability for work-related activity or fall to be treated as having it, and as long as they have continued to have or be treated as having limited capability for work throughout the period after their time-limited award ended.

On this basis, I trust noble Lords will agree that Amendment 43 and the supporting government amendments provide a more generous approach than would be provided by Amendment 42. I beg to move.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 42, to which the Minister has just referred. Before I start, perhaps I might wish him a happy new year and, in doing so, thank him enormously for his Amendment 43. It may be claimed that it was in response to my amendment in Grand Committee; if so, I am very grateful for it. I thank him and I do not need to go any further.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as noble Lords know, we have two systems of housing support. We have housing benefit for those who rent their property and support for mortgage interest for those who need support with their mortgage payments. Currently mortgage payments are running rather lower than benefit, but that is only because mortgage rates are lower and that can change. We are looking at the whole system of support for mortgage interest, but there is a system in place to support people whether they are home owners or payers of rent.

On the basis of what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment. Before I ask that he do so, I confirm that the Government see Amendment 39A as linked to Amendment 38, but that none in this group is consequential on another, and we would expect the House to make a decision on each individually.

[Lord Patel]

I thank the noble Lord for his response. I could pick up on each of the points that have been made and answer them, but the time does not allow that. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that we are talking here about the level of savings from welfare reform. We are not talking about the Government finding extra expenditure; it is the reduction in savings that we are talking about. The total reduction in saving of the whole welfare reform package will be in the region of £18 billion. We are talking here about not taking money away over five years even to the level of £1.3 billion from the most vulnerable in society. As I pointed out, they are those on the lowest third centile of income, to whom, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said, it is £94 a week. If we are going to rob the poor to pay the rich, we are entering into a different form of morality. The noble Lord asked the question whether it is moral. I say that it is moral to look after those that are sick, vulnerable and poor. If that is immoral, what is moral is to pay the rich—and we are on a different planet altogether.

I come to the figures quoted. The figures are based on the assumption that no one goes back to work until they reach 24 hours. If you speak to cancer patients, you find out that their greatest desire is to go back to work, because it is part of therapy. Noble Lords should read the powerful article written by a very bold and courageous lady called Jenni Russell, which says:

“Not skiving, minister, just suffering cancer”.

She describes what it felt like to have treatment for breast cancer. If you speak to patients on chemotherapy—and my noble friend Lady Finlay sees them every day—they feel good after four days of misery following chemotherapy. By the time they feel better it is time for another period of misery. The effect is cumulative to the point that after a few courses they cannot get out of bed and they wonder whether death might not be better than the disease. It is those people that we are talking about. They are not skivers or benefit cheats. They are the last people who cheat. Are we going to make savings there? I was honest in accepting that what I proposed was costly, but I am not going to be dishonest and say that therefore we should let those people suffer. I ask the House to determine who should be supported.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, that is a little premature. It is literally too early to look at the timetable of introducing any recommendations, whatever they may be? However, there may be elements that can be brought in sooner rather than later. I do not think that there is an impossible timeline here.

There is a real issue about these particular people who are suffering from cancers and other similar illnesses. You might look at the kind of experience that they will have in practice, because it is easy to look at the one-year ESA in isolation.

In practice, many people will first go through six months of sickness pay, whether it is occupational or statutory sick pay. That is a 28-week period in which many people will undergo much of their treatment. Then there is a one-year period if one is on the WRAG. Many people will go for a period on the support when they are going through treatment. We are seeking to precisely define which types of treatment they can go through. So there is a period on support and then a period on the WRAG. So the idea that there is an arbitrary one year, spinning down the track, from people being ill, is not the reality. There are a lot of stages to go through in our system, which people go through at different times and in different ways. I do not think it is right to think of it in a rather simple way; our system is more complicated.

[Lord Patel]

Sorry to disturb the Minister’s train of thought. I am grateful for the comments he made earlier, and the sympathetic way in which he made them. He may look forward to Professor Harrington’s report. I hope the interpretation of that report will be the important aspect. I gave the example of patients who are on intravenous chemotherapy, who are regarded as different. Equally, for people who are on oral chemotherapy or radiation treatment, it is a very debilitating form of treatment that exhausts one’s body completely. If you ask any patients who are undergoing this treatment, they will tell you that it does.

The second comment that the Minister just made concerns the different amount of money that is available to different people. But it still applies within the 12-month period, unless I have misunderstood.

[Lord Freud]

No, let me make that clear. I will take the points one by one.

Professor Harrington is looking very closely at cancer treatments and is working very closely with Macmillan in particular, to which I must pay testimony; it has provided a lot of extraordinarily valuable background data that we have been grateful for and are using. So there is a process going on.

The point I was making about the timescales is that clearly there is a time when not absolutely all but the bulk of all cancer sufferers going through treatment will be on the support, which is unlimited. They will have gone through that process, then they start the WRAG process, which is time-limited, after that. So it is not “one year for your illness”, if you like; it is one year on these particular benefits.

The noble Lord made a most effective speech at Second Reading, which I remember vividly. I am sure everyone else does as well. He was making the point about how tough it is getting through the experience of cancer—and we are worrying about that in detail. But I also want to give reassurance on the example the noble Lord used, when you get to a year and you are still having a tough time. That is probably not likely to happen in practice very much because of the different phases.

Synthetic Biology

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Freud

Wednesday 2nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, a process will start in September to look at the regulatory controls around this area. During that period, there will be a full consultation leading to changes to the regulations in order to reinforce protections, particularly around artificial cells. If all goes to plan, these should be ready by next April.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is not an artificial cell in the true sense because a cytoplasm of the cell came from an organism itself? That aside, systematic biology offers great potential for developments of all kinds. First, what is at stake here is to make sure that this technology is not patented. If it is, it will give a monopoly to a lot of other systematic biology technologies. Secondly, President Obama has already set up a bioethics advisory committee to advise him on the implications of this research. Does the Minister agree that it would be a good idea to do this in our country? Thirdly, if noble Lords attend or take part in next week’s debate on genomic medicine, they might learn even more.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I look forward to attending that debate. As the noble Lord has pointed out, the experiment by Professor Craig Venter consisted essentially of taking the DNA from one bacterium, mycoplasma mycoides, modifying it and then putting it inside another bacterium, mycoplasma capricolum. Technically, that is not the creation of an artificial cell, but that is prospectively the next invention that could come along. That is why we need to make sure that the regulations will cover it.

I can inform the noble Lord that Craig Venter’s experiment is being patented, although observations in the scientific press indicate that that does not represent a risk of him subsequently seizing control of the whole of synthetic biology.