Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Patel and Lord Bishop of Chester

Wednesday 12th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel]

I disagree with my noble, respected and even revered friend Lord Walton of Detchant. He fundamentally fails to understand this amendment. It does not remove the research functions of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. I have spoken strongly in the past about embryo research, including cell nuclear transfer and mitochondrial research. It is the authority that has held up for so long the progress in mitochondrial research. We should have been doing something about it at least 18 months ago. This amendment does not remove that function, nor does it remove the functions of the Human Tissue Authority, but by amalgamating these functions we can better promote research. The authority and functions of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority—and now we are entering into a science debate, which is not the purpose of the Bill—stop once it gives a licence to do specific research on an embryo. Once the embryonic stem cells are created it has no authority over how those cells are used. Once the cells are used to create a tissue for research it does not have any authority, but the Human Tissue Authority may do. By amalgamating the two you are co-ordinating this research function and maybe improving it. I hope that my noble and revered friend accepts that explanation.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, having listened to these distinguished doctors taking different points of view on this subject, I fear that I might lower the tone of the debate. However, I think that my money is with the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant. There is a world of difference morally between research carried out on tissue taken from a dead body and research taking place on living tissue which has the potential to be a human being in one way or another. People will argue about when life begins and those arguments can be very sensitive and very divisive. That is why there is separate legislation on research and on therapeutic techniques involving eggs fertilised outside the womb. Whether one likes it or not, if you put together the Human Tissue Authority and the HFEA you will create an impression that you are just dealing with dead matter or whatever, just a lump of cells. That is the impression that will certainly be given psychologically, even if in practice one could construct the unified authority in a way that had the two legs.

It may well be that one needs to revisit this area. The noble Lord, Lord Winston, speaks with such authority that I am very reluctant to take a different view. However, he seemed almost to be arguing for greater regulation rather than no regulation. I would be very reluctant to see a free market in implanting more than two embryos into women in this country, for example. The 14-day rule, which may be an irritant to researchers, was fought over and discussed at great length. To those of us who have quite a few reservations in this area, that is at least a line in the sand. I think that this area needs to be considered on its own merits and, notwithstanding the arguments quite rightly put by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, I am with the noble Lord, Lord Walton.

[Lord Patel]

Stem cells are not dead cells: they are immortal cell lines, such as the HeLa cells on which scientists have been doing research for decades. These cells were taken in 1951 from a woman called Henrietta Lacks—that is why they are called HeLa cells—and they are still alive. Most cancer research is done, and many drugs produced, using HeLa cells. They are immortal, living cells.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, as St Paul once said, I speak as a fool. However, is there not a difference between stem cells that are alive in that sense and a fertilised egg that is alive in a different sense?