Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Howarth of Breckland

Monday 23rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

My Lords, I am somewhat bemused about where we are in this debate. My view has always been quite clear: we already have enough legislation. I think that some of these cases are already appearing before the courts under general children’s legislation.

As I understand it, CAFCASS has recently been involved in a situation where a child was begging. We have to remember that very often the people who are exploiting children are the children’s own parents or relatives. This child was being exploited and selling the Big Issue 12 hours a day on the streets. She was exploited by her father, who went to prison. That seems to be just the sort of case we are talking about, but prosecuted under quite different legislation—the children’s legislation concerning neglect. Maybe that is where we should also look. We should see where else action is being taken.

I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, very carefully. I do not agree with her amendment but I am very much in sympathy with what she was saying in her speech. She identified some very important issues. One issue that perhaps we have missed throughout this debate is the one found in proposed new subsection (6) of the amendment, about vulnerable children who find themselves in difficulties because they do not understand what they are being expected to do, and even if they do, they have been so groomed or so frightened that they carry out whatever action is undertaken quite unconsciously; and even if it is consciously, they are in difficulties. We need to look at that and make absolutely sure that we are not going to be prosecuting children and young people when they are in those sorts of difficulties.

However, I am still of the belief that if we look at all the horrific incidents in the newspapers that have happened to children and young people recently—never mind all the ones that we in the profession know about: the thousands of children on child protection registers and the hundreds of cases that go through the courts every day—we know that there is legislation that could have protected those children. There is no doubt that the girls of Rotherham could have been protected by the legislation that is there. That is what the inquiry found: they could have been protected. So I disagree with my noble friend—

[Lord Patel]

Rarely.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

I have huge respect for him, but I really do think that this is a question of practice and of training. We keep repeating those words like a sort of mantra. What happens is the real issue—what action is taken to make sure that not just the police and the prosecutors but the health workers, social workers and voluntary workers, not those in the specific field of action but those who come across children in different ways, understand what they are seeing. I fear that, certainly in my area, modern social work training is not as precise in helping people to understand what they are seeing and then giving them courage and a legal understanding of what they can do next.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, that I stand somewhere in the middle on this issue. I have never been a great believer that more legislation will make a difference. My experience—and history—tells us that it does not. Some legislation will make a difference. The Government’s clause may well give a little jolt to the whole issue, but I hope that they will tell us what they are going to do to encourage all the professions to take this seriously. That goes not just for this area but for the whole range of child care and protection. We are at this time in this country in serious difficulties in making sure that our children are adequately cared for and protected.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Howarth of Breckland

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I will be brief—I am sure that the Minister will be grateful for that—but I want to say two things at the beginning. First, the Minister needs to know that many organisations think that a great deal in the Bill is extremely welcome. The tone of the debate seems critical. I think that we have the number of amendments that we have simply because people care about the issue and have discussed it at length. I have met several organisations which have said how valuable a great deal of what is in the Bill is taking forward work with disabled children. I thought that we needed to have that on record while we are all complaining bitterly about the things that the Government have not done.

I shall speak to Amendment 220. Most of the points have been made, and I will not make a long, heartfelt tirade about the group that I care about. I just say that I work closely with children with congenital heart disease, children born with half a heart, many of them with hypoplastic left heart syndrome. They usually look like perfectly ordinary children but they are in serious difficulty when they get to school. I am therefore immensely grateful to see the Minister’s amendment but I ask that we see the regulations, because the devil will be in the detail as to whether it really meets the requirements. If we can see the regulations early, it might relieve the pain on Report, when people will otherwise want to speak at length again.

My other question is: once we have the regulation and the detail, how will families be able to complain without taking themselves through massive tribunal cases, as we know has happened? It might be worth the Government looking at how parents raise issues under the regulations when they feel that their needs have not been met, because that would save everybody pain. It is no use saying to ourselves that Ofsted will deal with that, because we know that it visits only every four years. Some children have been right through school and never seen an Ofsted inspection. If we could have some clarity on that, it would certainly speed things up.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 223, to which my name is attached. I will be brief, because most of what I would have said has already been said well by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark.

I particularly support the emphasis that he put on the need for teachers to have the right training to deal with children with medical conditions. Without that training, it is likely that any guidance issued will be completely defunct. The NHS, local authorities and schools need to work co-operatively to ensure that training is provided and accessible to teachers.

I welcome the government amendment most sincerely. I am glad that the Minister has tabled it at this stage. My only problem is that, without seeing the draft guidance, we have no way to comment on whether its breadth and depth will be adequate to meet the needs of children with medical conditions. I therefore hope that the Minister can make a commitment to bring forward the draft guidance before Report, so that we can improve it—not criticise it, but help to improve it.

I also want to ensure the inclusion of medical conditions not already mentioned—the list is exhaustive— such as diabetes, epilepsy, asthma and allergies, but also cancers. It is often thought that children with cancers have short lives. Some, unfortunately, do, but most childhood cancers are now long-term conditions and should be treated more as chronic diseases, not short-term ones. I hope that the Minister will include dealing with cancers in the guidance.

The guidance must recognise both the social and emotional needs of young people with long-term medical conditions, and the fact that a health condition can impact on a child or young person’s ability to learn. Another important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, was the need to involve the parents and children to ensure that the school understands their condition and its emergency needs. A child having a hypoglycaemic attack requires immediate treatment. A child having an allergic attack requires immediate treatment. A child with a migraine needs to be treated with compassion, because they may lose their vision and hearing. Putting them in a corner or a quiet room does not solve the problem. Those are some of the things that children with a medical condition suffer on a daily basis in schools. If we cannot get things right for children in the Bill, we fail them.