Lord Pannick
Main Page: Lord Pannick (Crossbench - Life peer)Growth and Infrastructure Bill
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Lord Pannick
Lord Pannick
Your Lordships now come to whether Clause 27 should stand part of the Bill. As noble Lords have heard, the clause allows for an agreement by which an employee can receive shares worth £2,000 or more at the date of issue and then lose his or her rights to claim unfair dismissal, statutory redundancy pay and other employment rights.
Clause 27 was very heavily criticised in the debates in Committee. There was—I put it as moderately as I can—very little enthusiasm indeed for it on the government Benches or on other sides of the House, with the conspicuous exception of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, whose main argument in defence of the clause, if I understand him correctly, is that the deal will not be very attractive and therefore not many people will take it up.
There are four main objections to Clause 27 that the Government failed adequately to answer in Committee. One could identify many more objections but I will confine myself to four. The first is that the clause is objectionable because the employment rights were created—and have been protected by all Governments, Conservative and Labour—precisely because of the inequality of bargaining power between the employer and the employee. To allow these basic employment rights to become a commodity that can be traded by agreement frustrates the very purpose of these entitlements as essential protections for the employee, who lacks effective bargaining power.
The second objection concerns the jobseeker. Under the clause, an employer will be able to refuse to offer employment to applicants who decline to enter into a Clause 27 agreement. The irony, of course, is that the worse the job market for employment, the more willing the applicant will be to give up his or her employment rights in order to take the job, and the worse the job market, the greater the employee’s need for these basic protections against unfair dismissal and redundancy.
The application of Clause 27 to the jobseeker is particularly indefensible because the Government have now issued guidance, which was promised at Committee stage but which we did not have, that makes it very clear that a person will lose their jobseeker’s allowance if he or she refuses to take a job offer on Clause 27 terms; that is, they will lose basic employment rights. The guidance says that the terms and conditions under which the job is offered are not a good reason for refusing to apply for the job. There is a very limited exception which refers to the financial implications of receiving the shares, to which I will come in a few moments.
The absence of protection for the job applicant means that Clause 27 does not simply allow for an agreement to give up employment rights. In practice, it imposes on the jobseeker considerable pressure to take employment on Clause 27 terms. Clause 27, read with the guidance, will mean that the jobseeker is being made an offer which he or she cannot refuse—an offer that they must give up their employment rights. That is the second objection.
The third objection to Clause 27 was explained in Committee by a number of Peers from the government Benches—I stress, the government Benches—who have business experience. They said that the provision would be positively damaging to industrial harmony and would not be used by any sensible employer. Since this is Report stage, perhaps I may briefly report to the House what noble Lords from the government Benches said. The noble Lord, Lord Vinson, stated that,
“the whole point of wider industrial shareholding”—
with which we all, I apprehend, agree,
“is to try to create a sense of common purpose”—[Official Report, 6/2/13; col. 269.]
in the workplace. Clause 27 will do precisely the opposite. To deny industrial rights to employees will negate trust rather than enhance it. The noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, made a similar point at col. 272.
Perhaps I may quote the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who has considerable experience in small businesses. His words are so important and I could not possibly improve on them. He said:
“I cannot imagine any circumstances whatever in which this would be of any use to any business that I have ever come across in my entire life”.—[Official Report, 6/2/13; col. 293.]
I hope that it is appropriate for me to say that I have spoken to a number of noble Lords on the government Benches since Committee. Many of them share the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Deben—some of them in language even stronger than his, and even stronger than the helpful language that we have heard this afternoon from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean.
As the Minister well knows, there is not simply a lack of enthusiasm for Clause 27 but a degree of opposition to it on the Minister’s own Benches that makes the Government’s commitment to it incomprehensible. To use the word of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in Committee at col. 294, the Government’s approach is “mystifying”. In Committee, at cols. 298-300, the Minister told the House that the Government calculated that 6,000 companies would be interested in Clause 27. The noble Lord promised the Committee that he would provide the evidence that supported that statement, but I have received no such evidence and I do not believe that any other noble Lord has seen it. Therefore, I ask the Minister: does the evidence exist? If so, why has it not been provided? If it does not exist, will he please withdraw the statement that 6,000 companies are interested in acting under Clause 27?
My fourth and final objection to Clause 27 is that the employee and the prospective employee will not be given the minimum necessary protection to understand what they are being asked to give up. The Government have refused to accept that statutory rights should be lost only if the agreement is in writing and if the individual has received legal advice on the consequences of the agreement from an independent adviser. Parliament has specified such conditions in Section 288 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 in the context of a compromise agreement to settle particular employment disputes and tribunals. However, no such protection will apply here.
I recognise that the Government have published general advice to employees, but that is really a poor substitute for specific advice to employees from an independent adviser in their particular circumstances. The need for advice is particularly important when the value of the shares when issued may well be higher than their value later on and when there are tax implications for the employee of receiving the shares if they are worth more than £2,000. As I understand it, the employee or prospective employee who enters into an agreement to give up his employment rights for shares with, say, a nominal value of £3,000, will get a nasty surprise when he or she receives their next month’s pay packet. In the real world, the jobseeker and the employee need to know the implications.
The noble Lord, Lord Flight, said that Clause 27 may not be appropriate for all types of employee. The problem of course is that Clause 27 applies to all types of employee, with all the detriments I have mentioned. For all those reasons, I ask the House to reject Clause 27 and I very much look forward to the debate on this issue. I beg to move.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for so eloquently outlining the case against the proposals in Clause 27 and I was happy to add my name to the amendment, which your Lordships' House has discussed at considerable length at earlier stages of the Bill’s passage.
I remain bemused with the basic philosophy behind the clause. We are told that the scheme is aimed at small businesses that want to grow fast and motivate their workforces. We have heard that employees will take a significant reduction in their employment rights and face tax and NI demands on the free shares that they have been given over £2,000 as they receive them.
I assume that the minimum of £2,000 is for ordinary shares, but given the interchange on the previous amendment I am not convinced that they would necessarily be ordinary shares. In a number of years, possibly with a following wind, they might increase in value, although the House should note that the majority of micro and small companies do not make large returns for their shareholders in the early years. That rarely takes less than eight years or a decade. Worse than that, while the employee currently in a firm can choose not to take part, the applicant on jobseeker's allowance would have no such luxury—a point clarified in the letter from the Minister on 13 March. Either a scheme is voluntary or it is not. It is clearly not for those on jobseeker's allowance. This provision is supposed to encourage growth. We need to go back a step to the coalition agreement’s commitment to growth. With such a key strategy in mind to help SMEs, we should do all that is within our power to assist them. Clause 27 would do the opposite. If an employee has the choice between a company that offers the usual employee benefits and another that exchanges these rights for shares in the company, the evidence suggests that employees would rather maintain their benefits, especially in the current recessionary climate. That was corroborated by my own experience speaking with employees working for high-tech SMEs, who are bemused that they would want to demotivate their staff during the very difficult early days of a company when it is developing products and just beginning to enter the marketplace and unlikely to be making a profit, let alone anything that they could distribute to shareholders.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I can only reiterate that employee shareholder status is being treated in the same way, and that if in a specific case an issue arises, that is down to the discussions and decisions made at the local level in the jobcentres and with the employees who are seeking work. It is not just work for an employee shareholder as it may be that they are looking at a number of other positions at the same time.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked why we do not compel legal advice such as compromise agreements. Again, in the same bracket, we would say that this is to do with individuals looking at and accepting employment; it is not to do with departure from employment. We do not wish to treat the entry into employment in a different way. That is where we are.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol raised a number of points concerning whether this scheme is morally wrong. I think he used the expression “the thin end of the wedge” and that it was the beginning of the end for employment rights. I would reiterate that this is a new employment status which offers a different set of rights and mandatory share ownership. The status is not compulsory for companies to use and it will be suitable only for those companies that want to share ownership with their workforce. We must remember that employee shareholders will retain the majority of employment rights, including, for example, automatic unfair dismissal rights and the right to be paid the national minimum wage. As I said earlier, we have been consistent that the new status will not suit all people or all companies, but for those who choose to use it, the employee shareholder status offers more flexibility and allows greater risk and reward sharing between people and companies.
The right reverend Prelate also asked about flexible working. The statutory right to request flexible working creates a structure for conversations between employees and employers about changes to the ways of working that will be mutually beneficial. Employee shareholders will have a greater interest in the performance of their employer as it is linked to the value of their shares. We consider that employee shareholders are more likely to request flexible working if they think it will help them and the company, and do not need the statutory right to request. Further, employee shareholders can still make non-statutory requests for flexible working.
The Government want a labour market that works for employers and individuals. We want flexibility so that it is easy for people to find work that suits them and we want to help employers manage their staff more effectively so that they can focus on running and growing their businesses. We want to give individuals more chances to share in the growth agenda and to own shares in their employer. It is the Government’s belief that with this new status we are offering companies more choice and more flexibility. It is a new way of attracting high-calibre talent to growing companies. It may provide a boon to companies and improve UK competitiveness. This status offers individuals something new: employment with favourable tax treatment.
We all recognise that this may not suit everyone, and I have listened carefully to all the comments this afternoon. However, we should not deny people the opportunity to use this status or deny companies in the UK that are striving to grow and are looking for innovative and modern ways of taking people on. We want the House to embrace the opportunity and flexibility that this new status presents, and I would therefore ask the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Adonis, my noble friend Lady Brinton and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply. I sympathise with him because I am sure it was not in his bathtub that this foolish idea was dreamt up. I am very sorry that the Government have not listened in particular to the noble Lords, Lord King of Bridgwater, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Vinson, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft. Between them they have years of experience as employment Ministers and in business. Their views echo those expressed in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, with his business experience, and by many others. They are views that reflect the opinions around the House, not just on the Government Benches but on all sides, on the implications of this unwise proposal.
As your Lordships have heard, concern about Clause 27 is not a partisan issue. It is a question of the damaging effect that this clause will have on employment relationships, on industrial harmony and through the power it will confer on bad employers. Since the Government have declined to listen, it is time for noble Lords to put Clause 27 out of its misery. I wish to test the opinion of the House.