Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord True

Monday 16th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, after the barbaric massacre of Jews taken from a Holocaust instruction manual, can the Minister see any peaceful resolution to an attack that started with the supreme evil of murdering young people who were enjoying themselves?

I follow what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, was saying, because many years ago I sat down for coffee with a member of Fatah who had spent years in an Israeli jail. I asked what we could offer Hamas: “What do they want?” He replied that it wanted the complete eradication of Israel and the removal of Jews. Will the Minister confirm that he agrees that nothing has changed?

In the last few days, 6,000 rockets have rained down on Israel. Residents old and young of the kibbutzim have been slaughtered and abducted. Israel has decided that containment of Hamas does not work, which means that if possible it must be defeated. Neither Israel nor Egypt wants to occupy Gaza; they just need a clear view of Hamas, the enemy. Does the Minister agree that Israel is not bombing exit routes, as it is in Israel’s interest that the people of southern Gaza leave? It is Hamas that wants the human shield to remain to cover its barbaric terrorism.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord expressed very eloquently the feelings that the many people who have witnessed these events have. It is important that our hearts go out also to the Palestinian people who have been caught up in this. Israel has our full support in fighting the terror of Hamas, as I think I have made clear. It is extremely important that the window for civilians to relocate remains open for as long as possible and that civilians are allowed to relocate voluntarily and safely. Hamas also must support that objective. We will seek to press that all possible measures are taken to ensure safe humanitarian access and to protect civilians.

As the noble Lord says, Israel has been attempting to minimise civilian casualties by warning residents to leave northern Gaza; that has been complicated by Hamas terrorists telling the local population not to leave and instead, as the noble Lord said, using them as human shields. The situation is immensely bleak. One can see no short-term brightness. If I may, I suggest that we should all resort to prayer.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord True

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, I take a contrary view, as this amendment would add uncertainty to a situation that is already too uncertain. I believe that local authorities and the businesses to which the noble Earl referred want certainty most of all. They want to know what the rates are and roughly what local authorities will be able to retain. There will be a problem with valuations and the changes experienced by businesses. The noble Earl considered how the measure would affect businesses, but we are talking about the local retention of business rates by the local authority and how that affects that local authority’s expenditure. With respect, I suggest that the measure’s effect on businesses will be a problem whatever system we have: the current one or another. As the noble Earl rightly said, many accountants, surveyors and the like will look for ways to avoid paying taxes for all the right reasons, whatever the system. Therefore, this amendment would do no more than add further confusion and uncertainty to an already uncertain situation.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I take a similar position to that of my noble friend who has just spoken but I have a different perspective. I declare an interest as leader of a London local authority—the worst-funded local authority—which will be a tariff authority under the system put forward. One might therefore conclude that I would look forward to a review of these matters. In the unlikely and unfortunate event that the party opposite finds itself back in power, I take this amendment as a pledge that it will conduct a review.

I spoke at some length in Committee on the philosophy of these questions so I do not intend to detain your Lordships on the same issues now. My authority calculates on the basis of the information that has been provided so far. Through my noble friend the Minister I thank officials for their courtesy in contacting my officers. My authority currently expects to be about 17% adrift of our business rate target. We have absolutely no prospect whatever of growing business rates to get out of that hole, which is a continuation of a historic hole in which my authority has sat for a long time. That ought to lead me to say, “Yes, let’s have this review”, but, actually, that would be a rather mechanistic approach. I am not happy at all, as I made clear in Committee. Nor am I happy with the idea that there should be no reset before 2020. That position is absolutely unsustainable and there has to be a system whereby these matters are reviewed before then. I would like them to be looked at before 2013, as the amendment suggests. However, I thought that I heard my noble friend say in Committee that, although she would not be prepared to entertain an overall, general reconsideration of the system, there would be some kind of ongoing consideration of problems and issues as they arose, and there would not always be a flint-hearted, Treasury-style response, although there would be many such responses to questions that might arise.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that we need to know more, and I am grateful for the assurances from my noble friend that we will hear more. My feeling is that if we park this away and do not have a review until 2013, everyone will say, “Oh well, there will be a review one day”, and nothing will happen. We need an ongoing dialogue, and I shall listen carefully to what my noble friend says in response. I hope she will indicate that there will be flexibility and a continuing readiness to listen, not only before 2013 but after, and that she will agree that 2020 is not the date before which no move will be made.