Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place and on Public Transport) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Thornton

Monday 12th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the contributors to this debate have asked the Minister pretty much all the questions that need to be asked on this issue. Perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours that I would not have minded if he had been here doing this job, because he is definitely the expert on face masks in the House.

I want to make two procedural points. First, as we move forward to discuss face masks, I cannot see any reason why we would not be discussing them before regulations are made. If there are to be any changes to the regulatory regime around face masks, I cannot see that emergency legislation needs to be used. The House is perfectly capable now of discussing whatever needs to be changed, as the science evolves, prior to enactment rather than several weeks after. Secondly, I cannot resist teasing the Minister about the fact that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has asked the Government if they can please take care about not publishing three amended statutory instruments to correct the mistakes that they made in the first one—and they did it within 24 hours. It said:

“The Committee has noticed a recent increase in the number of correcting instruments, with several Coronavirus instruments having to be revoked or amended immediately after laying … We therefore remind all Departments to check all instruments thoroughly before laying them before Parliament”.


I think that probably counts as a B.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was correct to say that the need to wear masks was about protecting each other. The Prime Minister said last week, concerning the sharp rise in coronavirus cases across the UK, that the country had become blasé about following restrictions designed to bring the pandemic under control, but I think a lack of enforcement is partly to blame. The Prime Minister’s father, former MEP Stanley Johnson, has been pictured three times either not wearing a mask or with one tucked under his chin, in places where face coverings are required: a London shop, a Tube station and an airport.

Therefore, it is legitimate to ask the Government not specifically about Stanley Johnson’s conduct but about what assessment they have made of the levels of compliance and of people’s reasons for not following the rules. Perhaps it is because the rules are changing so quickly and are confusing, or because people are becoming blasé. As I have said, I travel in and out of London on Tubes and buses every day; as the Minister said, the wearing of masks is significantly better than it was a month ago. There is absolutely no question of that. However, there are still people refusing to wear them.

Business enforcement is an issue here. Shops and supermarkets are required by law to inform customers to wear a face covering—unless they have an exemption—which they do through signs or by telling them when they enter the premises. This is enforced by local authorities and businesses risk a fine if they fail to do so. However, there is concern that the Government may not be following through on their own advice. Four retailers—Sainsbury’s, Lidl, Morrisons and B&M, the homeware stores—were issued with warning notices by Barking and Dagenham Council in east London, after their staff were seen failing to enforce mask-wearing and social distancing by customers. After the enforcement notices were issued under anti-social behaviour legislation, stores were understood to have complained to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. It has been reported that a senior official at BEIS then telephoned the council and said that it

“did not have powers to enforce these guidelines using the Government’s Covid-19 emergency powers”

and that

“the action had caused a negative reaction from the operators”,

according to a letter of complaint from the council to Alok Sharma, the Business Secretary.

This is rather important. Can the Minister confirm these reports? If so, does he share my concern that maybe his colleagues are undermining these regulations, and public health? Who will enforce these regulations, and how? As the Minister said, the British Medical Association has called for face masks to be mandatory in busy outdoor areas as well as indoors, and where there is a risk of coming within two metres of other people, including in offices. It is clear that most workplaces were never designed for people to work two metres apart. The Government need to revisit the science and enforcement of wearing face masks. It would be great to have that debate before enactment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Palmer of Childs Hill) (LD)]

Can we try the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, again?