Customs Safety and Security Procedures (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The answer is 52,000. I beg to move.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

I thank the Minister for the explanation of these three statutory instruments and for the detail he provided. I trust that when he winds up he will stress that this is continuity rather than anything new. To the extent that this is continuity, I do not wish to dwell at this hour on things that are replacing what already exists, but I shall deal with some of the things that might be slightly different.

The customs safety and security procedures SI refers to exempting risks during a six-months transition period. Will the Minister tell the House whether this exemption will cause any risk? There must be a risk in giving a six-month exemption. If this were an insurance company, there would be a risk assessment for giving that six-month exemption. I am sure the Minister and his team have worked that out.

This SI also places requirements on small firms in the transitional period. I agree that there have to be requirements for small firms, but I question why businesses are included as small firms if they employ up to the rather arbitrary figure of 50 people and therefore have this exemption. Has the Minister considered how many companies employing 100 people would divide their company in two and thus be exempted? One could use any multiple of 50, but it seems to be an easy way to avoid the requirement and I wonder whether the Minister and his team have thought about that. Should this be done according to the number of people employed or the size of the enterprise? A massive enterprise with millions and millions of pounds does not have to bother because it can be classified as a small company, but if the opposite applies, you are not exempted.

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[Lord Bates]

That is the whole point. We are saying that, in the event of no deal, they would require that to trade. It is a very serious commitment. If they are above the relevant threshold, that will be a requirement.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

If there are a lot of businesses which have not registered, through negligence or misinformation, how much of a risk is that?

[Lord Bates]

Clearly, that is a risk. We have put out technical notices and engaged quite significantly with industry bodies on this. We have listened to the industry, which is one of the reasons why we have taken this approach on safety and security, with the six-month transitional period. We have tried to get the information out there as much as possible. However, we are concerned about that as an eventuality and encourage businesses to register, even at this late hour.

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[Lord Bates]

I am advised that the customs declarations service does have the capacity to process significantly more. I do not have a number. When I write on the other issues, I will include an update.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

Just to clarify once more, there has been legal advice over the years that, when something is in Hansard, it proves to be something people can rely upon. The Minister is saying that a name and address being given will suffice. As that has, presumably, now been recorded in Hansard, has the law now been clarified?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord may not have been present for a rather fascinating debate on Pepper v Hart, which took place on another Bill recently—the Trade Bill, I think—and my noble friend Lady Fairhead is here. I and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, are not going to rehearse that argument again, but a degree of clarity came through that. I do not wish to make light of a very serious point which the noble Lord is raising, that this is impacting on real businesses, real lives and real trading opportunities. What I am trying to do is give as much information as I can from the Dispatch Box in a fast-moving situation, and provide more information in writing. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that in good spirit.

The noble Lord raised the point about £10,000. I share his surprise. Like him, I am not used to carrying anywhere near that sum across borders. The Financial Action Task Force, an international government body, has identified this as a key risk. This requirement of declaration is set by each of the members; the EU sets the limit at €10,000; the USA sets it at $10,000. The Government chose their own limit, using a memorable round number. They did not want to use another state’s currency or alter the figure to reflect changes in the exchange rate.

The noble Lord also asked about existing risk profiles. In a no-deal scenario, we will continue to use the current risk profiles, updating them as needed.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked if we had asked the EU for a transitional period. After the UK’s exit from the UK, we will seek to negotiate a safety and security agreement with the EU, so that safety and security declarations are not required on imports between EU countries and the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked for the Government’s estimate of when all businesses would have an EORI number. We are committed to making it easier for businesses to be ready. Information is clearly laid out on GOV.UK. I have said all that.