Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Smith of Leigh]

My Lords, I first declare my interest. I am leader of Wigan Council and the chairman of the Greater Manchester Combined Authority—which I notice is covered in Schedule 2. I am also a vice-president of the LGA. I apologise to noble Lords for missing the Second Reading. Unfortunately it clashed with the annual meeting of my council. As I am the executive leader of the council and had to choose which meeting to go to, I think that I probably made the right choice.

I want to speak in support of my colleague Lord McKenzie of Luton and particularly to expand on what he rather dismissively described as his Amendment 13, which removes those three little words. What puzzles me is that the Government are—I believe rightly—encouraging a lot of joint working with local authorities to deliver lots of services, in many cases allowing joint appointments for senior officers, particularly for smaller authorities. As we know, in many cases it is a financial necessity to do this. As we have discovered in Greater Manchester, which is working on the community budgets pilot, joint working is essential if we are to deliver the Government’s agenda of reforming public services. We are working with 10 authorities in Greater Manchester. The three boroughs in London and so on are also good examples of places working very closely together. However, if joint work is going on, where is the audit taking place? The sensible thing would be to have a joint audit—to have someone who can audit all of the activity in a simple and straightforward way.

Given my noble friend’s knowledge of the accountancy profession he addressed the power of large audit firms and the way in which that might operate unfairly in the market. One way of reducing that power would be to allow local authorities to procure jointly. That would give them greater power in the market, enable them to get larger contracts and—one hopes, with the economies of scale—help them to get reductions in fees. I think that Amendment 13 is important and I hope the Minister responds to it.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, I also must declare that I am a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. I am also chairman of a local authority audit committee at the London Borough of Barnet, and am a councillor in that borough. I also thank the Local Government Association for its very informative description of the various options available. I have been quite nervous about centralising the acquisition of external auditors. I feel that the role of the internal audits tends not to be recognised by external auditors who, from my research, seem to do a lot of substantive work which in many ways shows that they are not relying on the work in internal audit that the local authorities are paying for. That is what is happening at the moment.

As much as I would like there to be local acquisition of external auditors, I am happy to go along with making this option available. I believe that the way that the centralised body performs will depend on how the local authorities react and whether they are getting a good deal. I also believe that the wording in the amendment is right. The danger of not permitting this centralised option is that local authorities, and the auditors themselves, will cherry pick the audits they want, and that the local authorities will cherry pick the auditors they want. That arrangement could be too cosy. This issue arises and has become imperative because of the ending of the Audit Commission. We are examining what can be done due to that change in circumstances. The comment about taking out only one or two words was absolutely right. Without removing the word “authority”, Amendment 1 will not carry the same weight. From our Benches I support both amendments in this group.

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[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

I wonder whether it is necessary to have that provision here. By virtue of all the Acts that deal with accounts, they all have to show a true and fair view. We seem to be dotting “i”s and crossing “t”s on this one. I am not sure that the amendment is necessary.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Will the noble Lord consider Clauses 19 and 20? Clause 19 deals with “General duties of auditors” and Clause 20 with, “General duties of auditors of accounts of health service bodies”. The latter includes those words, saying,

“the accounts present a true and fair view, and comply with the requirements of the enactments that apply to them”.

That reference is missing from Clause 19 and is not referred to in the earlier clause at all, but somebody deemed it appropriate to put it in Clause 20. I am trying to get some consistency, or to understand why there should be a difference between the two.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, my only point is that the latter clauses deal with the general duties of auditors but the first deals with the accounts themselves. Whereas auditors must ensure that it is a “true and fair view”, in Clauses 19 and 20, it has always been an accepted belief that with accounts prepared and signed off by external auditors—it is the chairman of the audit committee in my authority who signs off the accounts, with the chief executive—it is always a “true and fair view”. I have no real problems with it being added, but I just wonder if it is necessary.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, raises a question that I hope to answer—that it should not be, and is not, necessary. We can see whether the noble Lord agrees with that at the end of what I have to say.

We intend to require larger relevant authorities to present statements of accounts that are true and fair and for local auditors to give an opinion on whether this is achieved. This requirement is not included in the Bill, but the same outcome is achieved and mirrors the approach currently taken.

Amendments 11 and 16 would put these requirements in the Bill for all relevant authorities, but we are of the view that this is not necessary. Larger relevant authorities are currently required to present accounts that are true and fair, and their auditors are required to give an opinion on whether this is achieved. I assure the noble Lord that it is the Government’s intention to continue these requirements. These requirements are currently achieved through the interaction of primary and secondary legislation, the Audit Commission Act 1998 and the Account and Audit (England) Regulations 2011. All relevant authorities must observe proper practices in the preparation of their accounts. The regulations require chief finance officers of larger relevant bodies to certify that the statement of accounts presents a true and fair view of the authority’s financial position before these are audited. We intend to mirror this requirement in the regulations to be made under Clause 31, and Parliament retains oversight of these regulations.

This approach is less complex than specifying “true and fair” requirements in the Bill, because further amendments would be required to disapply these provisions and include modified provisions for smaller authorities, which, as the Bill makes clear, are not required to ensure that their statement of accounts are true and fair. Instead, they are required to ensure that their accounts “present fairly” or “properly present”, which are briefer and more proportionate forms of accounting. It is our view that that the current split between primary and secondary legislation works, and we intend that the interaction of the Bill and regulations under Clause 31 will continue to require larger relevant authorities to ensure that the statement of accounts present as true and fair.

The noble Lord raised the question of health authorities. The Bill does not change the scope of health authorities’ audit, or that of principal local government bodies. Auditors of clinical commissioning groups will give additional opinions on whether their expenditure has been spent in accordance with Parliament’s intentions. This is necessary because the resources available to health bodies are provided by Parliament. Expenditure by clinical commissioning groups is consolidated into the Department of Health’s accounts, and the department must be able to demonstrate to Parliament that all resources have been used in the way that Parliament intended. I hope that, with that explanation, the noble Lord may feel able to withdraw his amendment.