Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Lord Paddick and Lord Condon

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - part one): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon]

Before the Minister finally sits down, I ask her to acknowledge and perhaps clarify this point. We are considering this very important crossover point from special constables being given these powers to volunteers having them in the context of what the Bill is also doing. It is enhancing the role of police and crime commissioners by giving them the ability to consider taking on the responsibility for fire and rescue services, and giving them the power to appoint the fire chief as the overall chief officer for policing and for fire. The Bill will create a model whereby, for example, a relatively young 32 year-old police and crime commissioner in an area can choose to appoint the fire chief as the overall chief officer of policing and fire in that area—admittedly, with the approval of the Secretary of State—and in that context a young, relatively inexperienced PCC with a chief officer who may not have a police background could take decisions on what volunteers could and could not do. The notion of them being given potentially lethal force is quite a big issue. I look forward to the Minister, as I am sure she will, giving us some reassurance about the notion of volunteers being able to have pepper sprays that in theory can kill people.

[Lord Paddick]

I do not want to prolong the agony, but another aspect of this is that members of the public should be reasonably sure about what level of force they are going to encounter from whom. As I say, special constables now are virtually indistinguishable from regular police officers; if a special constable decides to use a defensive spray, that will not come as a shock to the member of the public. In terms of the way that the member of the public interacts with a police officer or special constable, they may or may not use force against that individual on the basis of what they anticipate the reaction of that person to be, or the ability of the person to respond to it. When it comes to a volunteer police community support officer, who does all the wonderful things that the Minister said earlier, I think it is going to be a bit of a shock, and an unreasonable one, to expect such a volunteer to respond with an incapacitant spray.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Paddick and Lord Condon

Monday 14th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in policing as a member of the Association of Chief Police Officers, and as a former commissioner and senior police officer. I first congratulate the Government on its resolve to deal with police corruption, past and present. Many wrongs have been righted that were long overdue. However, I share the reservations expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Dear, on Clause 23, and expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Blair, on Clause 24.

The challenge in dealing with police corruption is not the absence of relevant offences; it has always been the inability to establish credible, usable evidence of such behaviour. A new offence does not mean that the job is done and police corruption is ticked off the list of things to do. The fight against police corruption requires a well resourced and confident Independent Police Complaints Commission; profound ongoing ethical and cultural change in the police service, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Dear; and vigilance that is sustained at all times, not just at the point of a particular scandal. All I ask the Minister to acknowledge on Clause 23 is that it is but a small piece of a much larger endeavour, which seeks to sustain and improve ethical policing, and deal with police corruption.

During my time in your Lordships’ House I have heard from all sides, and from the noble Lord, Lord Blair, that symbolic legislation is rarely good legislation. Clause 24, which my name is attached to in questioning, feels like a piece of symbolic, public relations legislation. There is no evidence that judges do not view the murder of police or prison officers with the upmost seriousness and sentence accordingly. I share the same concern articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Blair. The clause means well, and I thank the Government for it, but I am not being patronising in saying I hope they have thought through what could be the extreme implications of it. It may be only rare cases, but I fear that a criminal on the run who has—or believes he has—murdered a police officer has nothing more to fear if whole life sentences are in place. With a warped mind in such circumstances, they might seek to shoot, stab or bludgeon their way out of an arrest scenario—or seek suicide by policeman, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Blair.

I do not feel strongly opposed to either of these clauses, but I have reservations relating to Clause 23, for the reasons I have said. I have a nagging fear that Clause 24 could have a perverse effect. All I seek from the Minister at this point is whether there has been sufficient consultation with the police service, as currently organised and led, relating to Clause 24. Can he reassure me that my fears are perhaps old fashioned and outdated?

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I briefly rise to support the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Dear, on Clause 23. I spoke on this issue at Second Reading. I do not want to repeat what the noble Lords have already said very clearly and eloquently, but one of the reasons that was given for this new piece of legislation was that it would include the corrupt activities of police officers while off duty. However, in the Plebgate case, to which the noble Lord, Lord Blair, has already referred, one officer has been successfully prosecuted and jailed for misconduct in a public office. That officer was not on duty at the time of the offence—indeed, he was not even at the scene of the event. Therefore, I should like to hear from the Minister in what way this new legislation adds to the offence that is already successfully used to prosecute police officers for misconduct in a public office.

The noble Lord, Lord Dear, has a distinguished record in tackling police corruption, particularly in relation to the West Midlands serious crime squad. I believe that if the noble Lord is opposing Clause 23 then the Minister should listen very carefully to what he has to say.

I could not put the reasons for opposing Clause 24 any better than the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Condon. The arguments that they have put forward are compelling. If a series of former senior police officers in this House are saying that the provisions of Clause 24 are both unnecessary and dangerous, I respectfully suggest that my noble friend the Minister should listen.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Paddick and Lord Condon

Wednesday 4th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, during my time as commissioner, I argued strongly for a fully independent and well resourced police investigation process. I have maintained that position since my retirement and I entirely support the motivation behind these amendments. However, I have concerns that Amendment 56QZF, in particular, is too prescriptive in the timescale available and that the notion of having 75% of investigators with a non-police background by January 2017 might, perversely, have the reverse effect of its intention. If it is a prescriptive requirement to get to that point, it may be tempting to employ people as investigators who are not adequately trained or have the right background to investigate these most serious and complex allegations. While admiring the intentions behind these amendments, I have concerns about the practicality of the timescales. I urge caution about such a prescriptive requirement.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, I will add to the comments of previous noble Lords in support of my noble friend Lady Doocey and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. As I said earlier, 30 years’ experience in the Metropolitan Police left me wondering whether the Independent Police Complaints Commission was truly independent. We have seen recent cases where the IPCC has not only apparently not been particularly independent but has not understood when a case is serious. It was only after officers had given evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee about the meeting between the former Chief Whip and Police Federation officers that the IPCC decided that the case was serious enough to take on as an independent investigation rather than referring it back to the police to investigate themselves.

Another less well known case is that of former officers in the Metropolitan Police who have complained about the way in which the Directorate of Professional Standards conducted an investigation against them. A complaint made to the IPCC was referred back to the Directorate of Professional Standards in the Metropolitan Police for it to investigate itself, which does not give much confidence to members of the public that things are being independently investigated. Clearly, having a former constable as the director of investigations—somebody who is controlling how investigations are carried out—does not appear to me to inspire confidence in the public that the IPCC is independent.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Condon; bearing in mind that he used to be my boss, it would be rude of me not to agree with him, and I notice nods from the other former commissioners who are in their place. However, I will say that I spent 15 years in uniform and was made an instant detective chief inspector overnight, such was the need at a certain time in the history of the Metropolitan Police. I received a visit some weeks later from my detective chief superintendent, who said, “Now you know what the secret is”—that there is really nothing much to being a detective.

I agree that the timescale set out in my noble friend Lady Doocey’s amendment may be ambitious but it is something that we need to aspire to in order give the public confidence. I am sure that there are people in other walks of life, such as former customs officers, who have not only the skills but the experience to investigate these sorts of issues. People who have not had previous experience of investigations could be given the necessary training to carry out effective investigations into alleged police malpractice.