Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Owen and Lord Mawhinney

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Owen]

My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships, but the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has asked me to speak on his behalf. I find no reason to disagree with anything that has been said, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Jay.

The Minister and I are going to disagree on substantial parts of the Bill—and a profound disagreement it is—but right from the moment when the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, and I negotiated with him, he always accepted that this was an important constitutional and parliamentary point. He expressed readiness to enter into a novel arrangement, which we very nearly reached, but instead it has come around by another mechanism. At all stages, he has treated all of us, Peers and the House itself, with the greatest respect, courtesy and diligence. For that, I thank him on behalf of everyone.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, having taken up your Lordships’ time both at Second Reading and in Committee, I want to chip in at this significant point in this particularly significant clause. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, dealt beautifully, succinctly and with clarity with the constitutional importance and relevance of the amendment. I pay tribute to the work that she and her colleagues have done and the clarity with which she was able to persuade us in her contribution.

Colleagues will recall that I did not take the constitutional high ground in my concerns about what was originally expressed. I started from the other end of the spectrum. Whatever we may say constitutionally and whatever the professorial advice, my former constituents did not believe a word of it. They expected the Secretary of State and Ministers to be responsible. That was the argument from the grass roots that I tried to deploy to persuade the Minister to look at this again. I think that I was maybe the first—I was certainly one of the first—to suggest that all this should be taken away from Committee, we should not be tempted into a vote and we should think further about it.

I am delighted with the outcome on behalf of all my former constituents and indeed everyone else in the country, because we are now all on the same page. We are all now saying the same thing. Some of us have arrived there by high constitutional means, others from the grubby reality of the streets. The Secretary of State is the boss and is held accountable. He gets some credit for the successes and all the blame for the failures. That is how it has always been and, thanks to this amendment, it is how it will continue to be. Everyone will think that this is a great outbreak of success and common sense.

I pay tribute to the Minister. My noble friend Lord Newton has just said that the Minister’s colleagues will also have had to have been persuaded to this point. I hope that I will not diminish the sense of satisfaction in the House if I say that perhaps the Minister will have had a more important part to play in that process than the debates in this House.

Whether or not this is your Lordships’ House at its best, I do not care to judge. However, I will tell those of your Lordships who have not had the privilege of serving in the other place that this could never have happened there—never have happened. That is because the other place is infected with a degree of party political commitment that is frequently, though not always, spared at this end of the Corridor. Incidentally, for those who do not share my view and would like to see an elected Chamber, I gently point out that if what I am saying is true, this amendment today would never have been possible in the new, so-called “modernised” Chamber that is envisaged.

I refer to the introduction of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, to the previous set of amendments. I pray in aid the fact that she said that she would take responses in this debate rather than in the previous debate. She mentioned me by name and I thank her for that. She reflected accurately what I have just explained at some length. However, I will give her something else that she can quote accurately in the future. I congratulate my noble friend the Minister. He has done an excellent job, not for the benefit of the party, the Government or even the health service, but for the country. I am among those who feel indebted to him for what he has done and the spirit that he has adopted. I hope that, on reflection, the noble Baroness will realise that her introductory three minutes of an extremely party political nature were seriously out of sync with the consensus mood of the House at this time.