Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Owen and Lord Alderdice

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Owen]

My Lords, we have heard a lot of speeches and I do not intend to take long, but I reiterate—if any noble Lord has come in late to this debate—that they should again read the amendment. It makes it clear that what we are trying to do is find enough time—a matter of a few weeks—to hear the opinion of the tribunal that has found against the Government on the disclosure of the risk register. That is a provision within the Freedom of Information Act and follows the earlier decision against the Government arguing for the disclosure of the transitional risk register by the commissioner.

It is pretty unusual for the Government to find two such rulings against them, and it seems perfectly legitimate, before making a final decision—which I readily concede has to be made before Prorogation—to give the courtesy, let alone anything else, of hearing the judgment. It is almost as if we are afraid of the judgment.

In fairness to Professor Angel, we heard from the former Lord Chancellor about his credentials. People do not sit on the tribunal for freedom of information just on one case. They have made many different judgments; they know the issues. With respect to the former Permanent Cabinet Secretaries who have spoken, those who sit on the tribunal know the issues—I do not say as well as former Cabinet Secretaries, but they were looking at it from one side of the equation, the well-being of the Civil Service and the service and information they gave to Ministers. The Freedom of Information Act looks at it from a wider perspective. It looks at it for the good governance of the country as a whole. It urges people to look at why we have open government and greater transparency: because people find it much easier then to accept democratic decisions. This is about a democratic process.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Owen, has said. My understanding from his earlier intervention was that he felt it important for your Lordships’ House to understand what was in the transitional risk register so that that would inform its debate on Third Reading. In the light of what my noble friend Lord Howe said—that it is almost certain that that material would not come into the public domain over the next few weeks, as I think that the noble Lord accepts—all that would come into the public domain over the next few weeks would be the reasons why the judgment was made, not the content of the transitional risk register itself. Therefore, I just want to be clear that the noble Lord is saying that all that your Lordships’ House could do would be to debate the reasons of the tribunal, not the content of the risk register. I am not clear how the reasons of the tribunal would inform our Third Reading debate.

[Lord Owen]

It is exactly the wording of the amendment,

“to consider the detailed reasons for the first-tier tribunal decision”,

if there is sufficient time. This is the issue of freedom of information. I have already openly admitted that Governments tend to restrict information and Oppositions want the maximum amount of information. That is the inherent tension which the Freedom of Information Act was established to try to resolve. It seems wiser to listen to those voices.

The noble Earl raised the question of constitutional issues. The Bill raises some serious constitutional issues. The Government have no mandate for the Bill. They specifically went to the electorate and said that there would be no top-down reorganisation of the National Health Service. That is considered by a lot of people outside this House to be a flagrant lie. That is one constitutional issue.