Energy Bill

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Howell of Guildford

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I would not perhaps go quite so far as my noble friend on these matters but it is important that we get from the Minister an indication of the regime under which a privatised gas storage and pipeline system would operate. Given that this will be a natural monopoly, as has been clearly explained, it ought to be under the regulatory scrutiny of Ofgem. If it is to be a natural monopoly, it should be regulated. At the moment, who owns it and for what purposes we leave other people to worry about. However, those of us who attended the talk last week by Peter Atherton might find it difficult to identify a potential purchaser of this system because it seems that it is a kind of secondary purchase, given the dire nature of a number of the obvious potential purchasers. They have far greater strains on their balance sheets than acquiring an asset like this, no matter how profitable it might be.

We may be worrying needlessly that this power will be granted as the Government may not do anything about it. However, were they to do so, it is important that an asset of this nature should not fall into monopoly hands of an unregulated character. Therefore, I certainly want to be given a clear indication from the Minister this afternoon that if this asset is to be privatised it will come under the scrutiny and regulation of Ofgem. I am not certain that such a move would raise sufficient money. It may be just another burden that DECC has to carry at present, and it feels that it would be simpler to transfer it. However, that is not the issue in question here: it is whether the people who buy the asset have unlimited powers to do whatever they wish with it or whether it should be subject to some kind of regulation. It need not necessarily be draconian but, rather, light-touch regulation—the kind which, in some respects, the regulator applies to National Grid and the wires and the pipes it owns and operates.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am looking forward to the Minister’s reply. I am sure that he will have that sort of balance in mind. I reassure the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, that at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union I was approached by a Russian general who asked whether I or anyone I knew would like to purchase a fully integrated Russian military pipeline system throughout the Russian Federation, which he thought would become available and would be sold by the Soviet army. Therefore, the noble Viscount can be reassured that these ideas are not original and that similar ideas have been suggested in the past.

As the noble Viscount would expect, I wish to comment on his points about denationalisation, which is subtly different from privatisation, which was aimed at widening the ownership of the assets and taking them away from the giant nationalised corporations which were killing innovation and screwing the customer. That was the plan. To say that it is discredited seems odd when this plan has been adopted round the world including in China, Russia, the United States and every major economy throughout Europe. A more balanced approach than the one he adopted would help his case.

Falkland Islands

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Howell of Guildford

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

If I may say so to my noble friend, that is a very interesting thought, which I will certainly pass on to my colleagues. It will be important to establish beyond doubt that whatever emerges from the referendum is absolutely and properly established, and that the whole process is properly conducted. Of course it is undeniably on a very small scale, and therefore the monitoring and checking should be absolutely 100% proof that this is a sensible and precise expression of the wishes of the islanders.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I welcome the Statement by the Minister, and declare an interest in so far as I am the chairman of the South Atlantic Council, a body established after the war to try to improve the triangular relations between the islanders, Argentina and the United Kingdom. The degree of success that we have enjoyed has been variable, but it must be made clear that sabre-rattling by the United Kingdom at this time is irrelevant, because democracy followed the war in Argentina and that, in turn, resulted in the demilitarisation of its economy and the country. The defence cuts of which we are talking this afternoon in the United Kingdom are as nothing compared to what has taken place in Argentina. It is therefore totally unrealistic to talk in terms of a military threat from Argentina. The Malvinas mania going on in Buenos Aires and across the country is concerned primarily with disguising the economic chaos engulfing that country.

We should take Gibraltar as a pointer. When a clear expression of democratic opinion was made, Spain began to think again about how it dealt with the problem of Gibraltar. In the kind of triumphalist rhetoric in which we sometimes indulge regarding the Falklands, it would be unfortunate if we failed to think about what should happen after the referendum. Now, for the first time in several years, there is an ambassador to the Court of St James’s from Argentina. Let us take advantage of that, and start a dialogue rather than just the haranguing which has been carrying on for the last few years. Let us use the opportunity of what I am fairly confident will be a clear expression of the opinion of the people of the islands that they wish to retain the status quo. There are many things—fishing, hydrocarbons, tourism, shipping, flights to the islands—which should be the subject of clear and straightforward negotiation. This could provide us with an opportunity to start afresh after many lost years—largely lost, I have to say, due to Argentine intransigence.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is extremely well informed on this and has followed it very closely. Of course, leaving aside sovereignty and the wishes of the islanders to remain a self-governing territory of the United Kingdom—very clearly expressed, and I am sure they will be again—a whole range of things have been offered to Argentina. There is much talk, of course, about the hydrocarbons explorations around the island. Thirty years ago, when I was involved in some administration of this country on energy matters, one of the files on my desk was concerned with exploration of the hydrocarbons around the Falklands—and that was right at the start of this, in 1980. All along, and increasingly and very specifically in the 1990s, offers were made to the Argentinean people to co-operate very closely and to share the benefits of anything that emerged. That was just one example; the noble Lord gave many others. There is a whole range of areas where there could be extreme benefit to the people of Argentina, but they must not include—and in fact must exclude—the consideration of the sovereignty and the self-determination of the people of the Falkland Islands.

Argentina: Falkland Islands

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Howell of Guildford

Monday 11th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I can confirm that the US position has not changed, regardless of the allusions to which the noble Lord has referred. The US recognises the UK’s administration of the Falkland Islands. We are in regular touch with the US on this issue, as on many other issues. We expect that dialogue to continue.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

Does the Minister agree that the UN decolonisation committee is normally concerned with the liberation of subjugated peoples rather than the transfer of ownership of islands that are largely uninhabited and are liable to be uninhabitable for a long time to come? Surely the role of the British Government at this time, nearly 30 years after the cessation of hostilities, should be to try to achieve a decree of reconciliation between the megaphone diplomacy of the Kirchner Government and the obduracy of many of the islands’ elected councillors, who do not seem to realise that they live in a world in which their nearest neighbour could be a friend rather than a source of hostility?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Except on the question of the Falkland Islands and its right to self determination, which I am sure that the noble Lord would not be against, we wish with Argentina—an important country and a member of the G20—to establish better relationships. But it is very hard if all the time the counterpropositions and withdrawal of co-operation we have described occur. The noble Lord is touching on a relevant point as regards the decolonisation committee, which is rather outdated and full of language about colonies, British imperialism and so on. We have moved far away from that because the Falklands Islands is a self-governing overseas territory under the British Crown and that is what it remains.