Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am not clear which Bill the noble Lord was talking about. The Bill that I am talking about is the Energy Bill before us today. However, in both cases the Opposition are fulfilling their legitimate and proper role in effective scrutiny.

I have a couple more questions. I know that the noble Lord has tried to answer the question, but I will re-read the Green Deal document as it addresses the issues that I have on the ECO. I am merely seeking clarity. I am genuinely not able to work out from the impact assessment, the legislation and the Explanatory Notes exactly how the ECO is going to work. That was the first of my questions. I am disappointed that I did not get answers to all of them, but I am sure that we can return to them. Perhaps the Minister could work with his officials and, before we get to Report stage, if there is more information available on the operation of the ECO, it would be very helpful to have that.

While it would be nice to have the actual statutory instruments before us then, I appreciate the Minister’s position. I have been a Minister. I have taken through legislation with statutory instruments. I have taken through a number of statutory instruments. However, if we were to have some of the information detail prior to that, it would assist this Committee and your Lordships’ House in being able to make a proper judgment. It is impossible to do so on what we have before us. I do not think that there is a person in this Committee who does not want the ECO to do exactly what the Minister wants it to do—address the issues of the fuel poor and the hardest-to-treat properties.

It would be very helpful to have clarification on two particular points. One is the cost to the consumer. That comes back to the idea of the consumer levy. I appreciate that CERT and CESP both included the consumer levy, but there was also Warm Front at that time, which was substantially greater than it is now. Perhaps the Minister can come back to us on that one.

The Minister also said that the energy companies would pay for large amounts of the ECO through their profits. Has he consulted the energy companies on that and what has there response been? If they intend to absorb the cost of the ECO through their profits, that would interest the Committee and the House, unless the energy companies intend to pass on the additional cost as well to their customers.

The final point is the one I made a moment ago about the report from GEMA, the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority. The Government are still consulting on what to do. That is why I understood it was in the Public Bodies Bill and that it could be moved from Schedule 7 to other schedules. But in this Bill it does seem that a more specific point is being made—I hope the Minister is listening and not just using his mobile phone—and I wonder if it is possible to give us more information on that, though I may be wasting my breath in raising the questions. I am not sure if the Minister is taking note.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I have had the opportunity to read this document and the three paragraphs referring to the ECO. It gives some detail but not a lot. Perhaps before we get to Report stage, if there is a delay and if things do take a long time, the civil servants will have the opportunity to provide us with the information we are asking for. It says that the ECO will be focused on houses needing support over and above the Green Deal. Can he tell us the manner in which this focusing will take place?

Secondly, he said the ECO will be able to combine legal powers to incentivise ECO support and Green Deal finance. Perhaps we could get some indication of how the incentivisation process will be carried out, because it would appear that the Government realistically anticipate in this document that something could go wrong. They are saying that these legal powers would be introduced only following a review of the company’s behaviour, if there was evidence that the households would lose out. We would want to know what losing out meant. If we can get some idea of the focusing process, if we can get some idea of the legal powers and the incentivisation mechanisms, and if we could get some information about how the Government would assess the means whereby companies would lose out, this would meet a number of our concerns, even if it was not in draft statutory instrument form. It would help if there was a slightly more explicit note.

I was rather surprised when the Minister referred to this document because we have all seen it before. It was a nicely produced thing but it was sufficiently insubstantial never to have appeared on the desk with the other papers. If the briefest reading and not a great deal of analysis under closer scrutiny can throw up four points like that, and if this is to be the defence of the Green Deal—the last but final word—then frankly we need rather more than we have at the moment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, that is exceptionally good advice. It will be crucial that information is available for tenants and for landlords. My point in moving the amendment was that the review should not be limited to the items listed in subsection (5) of Clause 36.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, suggested that my amendment is not clear on whether the Secretary of State or the reviewer would decide the criteria. I refer her to Clause 36(3)(a), which makes it clear that the matter is for the Secretary of State. All that I seek is not to limit the review to the four criteria listed in subsection (5). I hope that the Minister will take on board my point about information being available and how crucial that will be for the process being successful.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

My Lords, before we leave this issue, I am not quite clear on the extent of the penetration of the membership of the British Property Federation and on whether it captures all landlords. If the BPF has not so far—as I imagine—captured the recalcitrant landlords, I suggest that we should not try to impose too much responsibility on the BPF. At the same time, if this legislation is to succeed, the Government’s role should be to show leadership by trying to inform the public of what could be available to them and what might be being denied them because of landlords who by and large—historically, sadly, there are all too many of these—are indifferent to the needs of many of their tenants.

It would seem that the more insecure the tenancy, the higher the rents and the less attractive the accommodation. Very often, individual metering and inadequate insulation are the hallmarks of such properties. While we have a responsibility towards those tenants who live under registered or trade association landlords, we have an important and even greater responsibility to those who live in wretched and dreadful conditions because of the force of very complex circumstances. Sometimes, such tenants are not in a position to make the right economic judgments—which, in many respects, lie at the heart of the Green Deal—because, sadly, they have too many other things to worry about. The fact that these folk may not be in these properties for long does not mean that their successors should be condemned to the same dreadful conditions as those in which the previous tenants had to stay. The Government must pay greater attention to this issue. It is to the shame of previous Governments that these situations have been allowed to prevail for so long.