Climate Financing

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and in doing so I declare my interest as chair of the APPG for Africa’s inquiry into just energy transition.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK COP 26 presidency published a delivery plan with other contributors showing that we would meet the $100 billion goal in 2023. At the Petersburg dialogue this May, developing countries confirmed that we are on track. We have worked with the Canadian and German Governments to publish an open letter at the UN General Assembly explaining upcoming milestones. The UK and other contributors are working with the OECD on a report by COP 28 on progress with regard to COP 21.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I welcome the Minister’s Answer. Does he agree that the $100 billion target is just a fraction of what is needed? The capital requirement for just energy transition in Africa alone is estimated to be around $2 trillion to $3 trillion, yet the $100 billion target has been consistently missed in the past. Can the Minister tell the House what plans there are to make up past shortfalls, including the UK’s contribution, and what is the Government’s strategy to crowd in the additional private capital that will be so critical in meeting the challenges of energy transition and climate change?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some very good points. He may not have had the chance to see it yet, but we published a WMS this morning with details on our progress towards meeting the $100 billion target—so his question is very well timed. He makes a good point that, while government finance will be important, of course private finance is equally important, including in the UK and developing countries, towards meeting these goals.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her suggestion. The Treasury is not normally shy in coming forward with proposals for extra taxes if it thinks it can get away with it. Of course, we have already imposed the excess profits levy on a number of producers in the UK; indeed, those producers already pay increased rates of corporation tax. We must be careful that we do not disincentivise investment. Putting aside the wider politics of it, which we all understand, I am sure that everybody is aware that we need tens of billions of pounds of investment into existing oil and gas facilities. I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for the continued production of UK gas; it is an important transition fuel and I hope he will manage to convince some of his Liberal Democrat colleagues to support us in this. We do need gas in the short term, but many of those same companies are investing many billions of pounds also in offshore wind and other renewable energy infrastructure, so we want to be careful not to disincentive them too much from that. I am sure the Treasury will want to take into account all these helpful considerations as to how it can increase its tax base.

In conclusion, I am grateful to noble Lords for their amendments on these topics. I hope I have been able to provide at least some reassurance to some people on their amendments and that they will therefore feel able not to press them.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. On the tax treatment of batteries for solar power, I heard the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s Questions today say on a number of occasions, “What I am about is cutting tax”, so perhaps he could suggest to her that this is one of the first tax cuts she could make.

On long-duration storage, the Minister made the point that there is a wide range of technologies, some of which are innovative, and the Government need to consider them. As I said in moving my amendment, that is acknowledged, but there are some that are not innovative: they are proven and effective and we need to get on with them. I hope the Minister can find a way of addressing this, because we will come back to it. The Government need to find a way, whether it is through specific pathfinder pilots or whatever it is, to get on with some of the things that need to happen now. The Minister said that it was premature at this stage to come forward with this stuff. If he talked to the project managers of Coire Glas, I think they would tell him it is not premature at all; in fact, it is desperately needed. They have a project ready to go, but they have no revenue model. We know we need it, the Government acknowledge in their consultation on long-duration storage that we need to massively ramp this up, so we really need to get on with it. I am afraid the Minister did not really address that.

I have one final question for the Minister. He said we will have the solution “by 2024”. Can he confirm that that means we will have the revenue models by 1 January 2024? There is a big difference between “by 2024” and during 2024. The industry is very worried that, when it has pressed the department on this, it has been given no assurance that it actually means “by 2024” and that it could be by the end of 2024. Can the Minister clarify that, in writing perhaps, to me and other Members of the Committee? These are critical things. We just have to get on with doing the things that we know how to do. There are lots of things that we do not know how to do. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Employment Rights

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not think that those answers are contradictory at all. It is always nice to go further in these matters. We keep all of these employment rights issues under review. As I have said, we have an excellent record, and we will go further when it is possible to do so.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the comments of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in response to a question in February 2020 on thresholds for constitutional ballots. He said:

“If one had a threshold related to voter turnout, the inflexibility of such an arrangement could easily prove counterproductive and have the paradoxical effect of equating non-participation with no vote, because low levels of participation can void a given result.”—[Official Report, 12/2/20; col. 2265.]


In the light of those comments, what plans does the Minister have to review the trade union legislation which imposes just such ballot requirements on trade unions?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We keep all these matters under review but I do not think there are any specific plans to change those thresholds at the moment. It is very important that, before any strike action, there is proper consultation with employees and a proper secret ballot takes place, so that we can make sure that strike action has support from the workforce.

Energy Security Strategy

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, there are things to welcome in this Statement but unfortunately, there are also many missed opportunities. Energy security is obviously critical at this time, but we must understand that it is about not just security of supply to the United Kingdom but the fact that millions of households right now feel a complete lack of security regarding their ability to pay their energy bills going forward, and particularly as we go into the next cold period.

The Government had an opportunity to take up my right honourable friend Edward Davey’s proposal: a windfall tax on the super-profits of the oil and gas industry, which the Labour Party has also argued for. That could have unlocked finances to give further support to people who will be desperately vulnerable this winter.

As the Liberal Democrats and many others in this House have repeatedly stated, curtailing the wasted energy that leaks out of our buildings should be the No. 1 priority in the hierarchy of measures we take to improve our energy security, reduce carbon emissions and cut costs for households. But there was nothing new in the Statement on this front. I asked the Minister at Questions yesterday why the number of insulation measures installed annually in the UK had fallen from a high of 2.3 million during the coalition to an average of less than 10% of that peak since then. He did not really give me an answer, to be honest, but I do not blame him for that. If he was unconstrained by collective responsibility, he would be able to be clear that it was down to the myopic foolishness of the Treasury, which has kyboshed many of the schemes that have been brought forward in the past. Not least of these is the green homes grant, which was destroyed by its lack of understanding that this has to be a long-term project, not a short-term stimulus measure. I hope the Minister will not be deterred, however, by that myopia, and will continue to urge his government colleagues to take a more creative approach to this issue, including fiscal measures such stamp duty discounts and council tax rebates for homes that improve their energy performance certificate ratings.

Can the Minister also tell us when the new ECO4 regime, which he mentioned yesterday, comes into effect? Am I correct in thinking that there is gap between ECO3 and ECO4 coming into effect? If so, why is that being allowed to happen?

Like the noble Baroness speaking for the Labour Benches, I welcome the extra commitments on offshore wind, but I also share her view that this is a massive missed opportunity for onshore wind. Onshore wind, as has been said, is one of the cheapest ways of powering green energy, and it is absolutely reckless that we are putting it aside.

On oil and gas, I hope the Government are really thinking about the danger of stranded assets on any new exploration. That is a dangerous thing.

I should declare my interest as a member of the UK Hydrogen Policy Commission in saying that I very much welcome the Government’s commitment to doubling their ambition to 10 gigawatts by 2030, and that for the first time, at least half of that will be green or electrolytic hydrogen.

Our ambitions are now similar to those of many of our international competitors, which is welcome, but the funding allocation behind them is completely different. We are not putting in anything like the money that our competitors are. Could the Minister look at that issue in particular?

Finally, will the Minister also look at the support that will be needed by local authority planning departments and councillors, which will have to deal with an increasing number of hydrogen-related planning applications? Currently, most do not have the necessary skills or resources to deal with them or to address the inevitable concerns. Will he also look at the regulatory environment that will be required? The hydrogen strategy suggests that regulations will be made on a piecemeal basis as hydrogen is scaled up, but this misses the point that regulatory certainty is absolutely required if the scale-up is to happen at all. I hope he can address a few of those questions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, and the noble Lord, Lord Oates, for their relatively constructive comments. I know they do not necessarily agree with everything we are doing and would like us to go further in some respects, but I know that in general, their hearts are in the right place. The strategy is of course a long-term plan to accelerate the transition away from expensive fossil fuel prices that, obviously, are set by global markets we cannot control. I know that both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will support us on that.

Starting with the vital issue of concerns about energy prices, correctly raised by the noble Lord, the strategy reconfirms that the Government are committed to helping with the cost of living. That includes over £9 billion of help for families struggling with their bills. We are aware, of course, that Ofgem will set the next price cap in August, and we will want to review the current support arrangements at that point, well in advance of them taking effect in October.

The noble Lord also raised issues concerning energy efficiency. I know that he and I agree on the critical role that energy efficiency plays in both our energy security and in helping consumers to manage their energy bills. I disagree with him, however, in that this Government have gone further than any other in setting out an ambitious energy efficiency strategy, including through our landmark heat and buildings strategy. I know he will want to push us to go further but, in essence, we are heading towards the same destination—although apparently, we have different rates of getting there.

In response to the noble Lord’s question about ECO, there is no gap between ECO3 and ECO4. There is a delay due to legal considerations in tabling the SIs to implement ECO4, but we are certainly in touch with the industry bodies to explain that, and there is no gap in the implementation. The increased budget associated with it, at £1 billion a year, takes effect.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, raised the subject of onshore wind—I am sure there will be further questions on this as we proceed through the Statement—and also solar. Noble Lords are correct: onshore wind and photovoltaic solar are the cheapest forms of renewable energy. We are fortunate to have more onshore wind that pretty much any other country in northern Europe, and we continue to promote it passionately.

That said, both onshore wind and large solar projects —which can be controversial in some circumstances—should be pursued on the basis of local community support. Clearly, where that local backing exists, the strategy includes support for new projects and the enabling national network infrastructure.

Offshore wind is an area in which we have been hugely successful, and it has had a transformative effect compared to other renewables. Offshore wind is especially suited to the UK’s geography, and we truly are leading the world in its technology and capacity. It rightly forms one of the centrepieces of the strategy. As the noble Lord, Lord Oates, referred to, we are increasing our ambition to deliver up to 50 gigawatts by 2030, including up to five gigawatts of innovative floating wind capacity. By 2030 we will have more than enough wind capacity to power every home in the United Kingdom.

In response to the question by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, I say that this is all bringing vital investment into the UK, particularly to our coastal communities. It will support 90,000 direct and indirect jobs by 2030. I met the Mayor of Tees Valley last night, who was telling me about some of the enormous projects being built on his patch, entirely to benefit from this expansion of offshore wind capacity.

I also welcome the support of Labour—if not the Liberal Democrats—from the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for nuclear. It is very welcome. Energy security means being able to meet demand even on the coldest days of winter when there is neither sun nor wind. We need a baseload of decarbonised power to complement the renewables we are installing and while most of the current nuclear fleet is reaching the end of its lifespan and will be decommissioned this decade. We will be reversing decades of underinvestment and we will build back British nuclear.

In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, about the new body, I say that this will be set up immediately to bring forward new projects backed by substantial funding. We will launch the £120 million future nuclear enabling fund this month. We intend to take one project to a final investment decision in this Parliament and two in the next—subject to value for money and the appropriate approvals, as always.

On the subject of fracking, which the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, also asked about, it is right and sensible that, with wholesale gas prices around 10 times their level at the end of 2019, we review the science and evidence picture around fracking. The strategy commits to assess whether the previous conclusion against licensing has shifted or if scientific developments have changed, and we will do that.

I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Oates, for hydrogen. I am happy to look at the comments he made about support for local authorities in terms of progressing hydrogen applications. I am sure we want to provide as much technical support as necessary and I agree with his comments about the importance of regulatory certainty in this area.

International Energy Agency Report

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes an important point. As well as encouraging OPEC to increase production, we are trying to increase production from our own domestic sources and ensure that there is increased investment in our own resources in the North Sea.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister had a chance to read the excellent blog on this subject by the former clerk to the Lords Science and Technology Committee, Dr Simon Cran-McGreehin, which reminds us that, in 2012, 2.3 million insulation measures were installed in the UK before policy changes reduced that to an average now of 10% of the peak? Does he therefore agree that the quickest way to restore these levels would be immediately to appoint Liberal Ministers back to government, given that this was during the coalition? Failing that, will he consider which of the policies in place at that time could be adopted now to speed up building insulation, which I know he is as keen to do as the rest of us?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will forgive me if I do not accept at least one of his policy recommendations. For that to happen, the Liberal Democrats would need to win an election, which is vanishingly unlikely in the current circumstances.

Energy Security Strategy

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 7th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are ramping up all forms of renewables, but we have a requirement for oil and gas in the short term. I remind the noble Baroness that the UK’s emissions are falling fast. We have the fastest rate of declining emissions of advanced western economies. We were the first to set a long-term target. The UK is responsible for a tiny proportion of emissions in worldwide terms, and this is a worldwide problem. We are reducing our emissions; we are making progress; we are rolling out renewables, and we are rolling out energy-efficiency measures.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, the immediate crisis of energy security relates to the energy security of millions of British people who are facing ruinous bills. In that context, why have the Government chosen a strategy that passes over the cheapest form of energy production —onshore wind—and have instead adopted the most expensive—nuclear—which will be piled on people’s bills through the RAB charge? What is the reason behind that?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As we debated many times in this House, we need both. We need nuclear and are pleased to have the support of the Opposition in accepting that we need it for long-term baseload power supplies. We also need renewables, which is why we already have the second greatest amount of offshore wind power in the world. We are seeking to ramp up those facilities as well. We are also deploying additional solar and hydrogen production. As I said, on onshore wind, we will look to go forward in partnership with supportive local communities. It is not a question of picking one technology over another: we need a diverse mix of energy supplies. The noble Lord was wrong to say that there was a problem with the UK’s energy security. There is no difficulty with energy security; there is clearly a short-term difficulty with the price of energy—particularly relating to gas—and we totally understand the difficulties that consumers are going through. That is why the Chancellor announced the £9.1 billion-worth relief package.

Energy Storage Capacity

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to increase energy storage capacity in the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, energy storage is an essential source of flexibility for net zero and for energy security. The Government are analysing whether further intervention is needed to support deployment of long-duration energy storage, including hydrogen storage, to help ensure a least-cost transition to net zero. The diversity of the UK’s gas supply is a strength of our approach to energy security, and GB gas storage tops up supply during periods of high demand.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his response. He will be aware that due to the UK’s lack of long-term energy storage, we waste enough wind energy every year to power over 1 million homes. Does he recognise that long-term energy storage, alongside renewables, could end this waste and provide the most cost-effective solutions to decarbonising the grid? Can he tell the House why the revised energy policy statement was so unambitious on long-term storage, and when we will get some decisive action in this area?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to point out the importance of long-term storage. We are aware that long-duration electricity storage—for example, pumped hydro—can struggle to deploy because of the high capital costs and the lack of forecastable revenues. We are analysing responses to a consultation from last year on a call for evidence on facilitating further deployment of this type of storage. We already have a considerable amount, but he is right that we must do more.

Exports: Support for Businesses

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 31st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We can trade statistics and I can give the noble Lord alternative statistics, but we are optimistic for our export service. We are providing good support to businesses. Businesses across the UK are continuing to export to EU member states and to non-EU member states. We continue to be optimistic for the service. We will provide support to businesses and I am confident that British business will bounce back.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister had a chance to read paragraph 1.16 of the OBR’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook? It states:

“With little evidence to suggest that we revise our assumption about the negative effect of Brexit on UK trade flows, we continue to forecast little growth in export and import volumes and a fall in the trade intensity of the economy over the medium term.”


Does he recognise how devastating a statement that is for a trading economy such as ours? Can he tell the House what the Government intend to do to address these highly damaging impacts of Brexit?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I have not had a chance to read the paragraph that the noble Lord refers to, but I know that there are a number of contrary statistics out at the moment and it is quite hard to disentangle the various impacts. Of course, the pandemic had a serious effect on all countries’ export performances, and many supply chains are still suffering. I will certainly take the opportunity to read the paragraph the noble Lord refers to.

Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Report stage
Thursday 24th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, this group addresses the foreign ownership and transparency issues which we have just heard about, and it includes the amendment in my name and that my noble friend Lord Stunell, on transparency issues.

I very much support the compelling arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and I hope that the Minister will be able to address them. I was also pleased in Committee to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol. He has brought back one that addresses the concerns that were raised in Committee, and he will certainly have the support of the Liberal Democrats. I think it fair to say that Peers on all sides of the House are concerned about the foreign ownership issue, so I hope the Minister can give us some comfort on this. However, if he cannot accept the amendment and if the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, chooses to divide the House, he will have our support.

Amendment 9, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stunell, deals with transparency. As drafted, Clause 13(2)(a) allows the Secretary of State to withhold any material which they believe would

“prejudice the commercial interests of any person”.

As I said in Committee, this is an enormously wide loophole which does not take any account of the degree of prejudice to the public interest of withholding that disclosure. Surely it is only proper in order to ensure effective public scrutiny that Ministers are not able to hide information behind claims of prejudice to commercial interests through wide loopholes such as this. These projects are being funded by the public and they have the right to know all relevant material, except in exceptional circumstances.

We already know how reluctant the Government and their agencies are to provide information on costs which is overwhelmingly in the public interest, but it goes wider than that. I note that in a reply to a Written Question from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about meetings between Ministers and the China General Nuclear Power Group, the response was that no minutes were kept of that meeting. I am not clear whether that is within the Ministerial Code, but it goes to show that there is a reluctance to share information here.

The record of transparency in nuclear affairs is poor. This amendment would require the Secretary of State, if he withholds information, to make it clear that it was seriously prejudicial to commercial interest and to set out to Parliament his reasons for withholding it. I hope that the Minister can address those issues in his response.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debates. As all the amendments in this group, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord McNicol, Lord Vaux, Lord Oates and Lord Stunell, are linked, I will address them together.

I start with those tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol. As the noble Lord has described, the amendments seek to create an obligation for the Secretary of State to bring forward a list of foreign powers and entities that should not be allowed to invest in nuclear projects, and to use this as the basis for a new designation criteria under the Bill. I appreciate the sentiment behind the amendment but, as the noble Lord will understand, I cannot agree to it for a number of reasons. The amendment is too broad; it does not specify the range of companies that it could cover or the reasons that a foreign power or entity could be included on a list, and the excluded activities are extremely wide—all participation in all projects. This is an extremely broad-brush approach which could severely affect our ability to bring in finance and to deliver new nuclear projects. We would expect the amendment to have a chilling effect on investment, ultimately leading to a higher cost for consumers.

In addition, I am concerned about the further impacts of the amendment. In the noble Lord’s explanation of the amendment, he mentions that the list should act

“in a similar way to the Financial Action Task Force’s list of high-risk countries.”

However, the main focus of that list is to encourage enhanced due diligence in respect of these countries, rather than to provide an outright ban as this amendment seeks to do.

There is also an inconsistency between the amendment to Clause 2 and the proposed new insertion after Clause 3. While Clause 2 is targeted at preventing listed entities from having full or partial ownership of a nuclear company under the RAB model, the proposed new clause discusses barring entities’ involvement in the whole civil nuclear sector. If this wider approach were taken, it could limit our options for international co-operation on this sensitive issue, including obtaining technical advice.

By highlighting these problems, I do not suggest that I disagree with the sentiments behind the amendments. Indeed, as the noble Lord will know from the numerous discussions that I have had with him, the Government know that the protection of our national security must be the top priority. The Government already have strong oversight of foreign ownership in nuclear projects as a result of the NSI Act 2021, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, reminded us, which includes the ability to call in for assessment any qualifying acquisition if the Secretary of State reasonably suspects that it may give rise to national security concerns.

Importantly, certain acquisitions of entities operating in the civil nuclear sector require mandatory notification and clearance before the acquisition can be completed. This is set out in Schedule 4 to the notifiable acquisition regulations made under the Act, which specifically include entities which hold, or are in the process of applying for, a nuclear site licence or development consent under the Planning Act 2008 in relation to a nuclear reactor.

To provide an illustrative example, this means that if a new entity wanted to acquire over 25% of the shares in a nuclear project company, this would have to be notified to the Secretary of State and could not be completed until, or if, the Secretary of State agreed it. Indeed, the Secretary of State could require that the transaction was not progressed, assuming the relevant tests in the Act were satisfied. If the acquisition was completed without first being approved by the Secretary of State, or in breach of an order from the Secretary of State, it would be void and not legally effective.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I am happy to give Amendment 11, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, the support of these Benches. It is particularly important given the failures of the early cost recovery model in the United States. Whatever one’s view of nuclear energy, we really do not want to end up spending more than $20 billion, like they did, and getting no new nuclear plants at all. South Carolina in particular spent $9 billion before Westinghouse went bankrupt. If we are to go ahead with this, we certainly need to ensure that it delivers something at the end of it.

On Amendment 12, I will not go into the detailed debate about the taxonomy issue. The one thing I will say, in the context of the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, is that whether or not nuclear is regarded as a sustainable means of producing energy, it is certainly not clean. It produces significant amounts of waste that have to be dealt with. Nearly 70 years after our first nuclear plant came online, there has been a scandalous failure to provide a permanent solution. We heard from the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that discussions are ongoing about the geological disposal facility. I am sure we will hear more from the Minister on that. This has been going on for years and years and there is no permanent solution.

I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, is not going to move her amendments. We certainly discussed this in some detail in Committee so I will not dwell on it further, but the nuclear industry’s failure to take its responsibilities seriously in this way is notable. Indeed, until the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority was set up there was no national plan to deal with waste at all. It has done a great job trying to quantify the level of the situation—of course, we have seen bills and disposal costs go up and up year on year—but it is a really important point and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for bringing her amendments to the attention of the House.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to what will hopefully be the final grouping on this Bill. I thank all the hardy souls who have lasted throughout the Committee and Report stages to get to this final stage.

Let me start with Amendment Neville—you can tell it is the final stage; the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, is what I should have said. Why did I say that? In my mind, they sounded the same: Lord McNicol and Amendment 11.

Let me state to the noble Lord that I share his ambition to maximise the chances that a nuclear RAB project will commence or continue generation in the unlikely event of an insolvency, therefore preventing sunk consumer costs. It is for this very reason that we have introduced a special administration regime for nuclear RAB projects, with the aim of ensuring that consumers reap the benefits of the low-carbon electricity generated from a nuclear power station which they helped to build. In light of Amendment 11, I consider that it would be helpful to provide the noble Lord with a clear explanation as to the exit routes available to a special administrator under this legislation, and how these would not impinge on the ability to bring a nuclear power station under public control, if that is in the best interests of consumers and taxpayers.

Let me first reaffirm that special administration is a court-administered process and a nuclear administrator would be an officer of the court. It is the nuclear administrator, under the supervision of the court, who would be tasked with exploring all viable options for ensuring that the objectives of the administration are met. This is supported by the Secretary of State, who is able to provide funding and does have options for bringing the administration to an end in certain circumstances, as I will now explain.

The first route available to the administrator is that the company is rescued as a going concern. This is the preferred option for achieving the objective, save in certain circumstances, and would ensure that normal service was resumed and the plant would continue construction or generation. If this is the case and the objective can be achieved, then the Secretary of State, Ofgem or the administrator may then apply to the courts to end the special administration order.

Should this not be feasible, the administrator’s second option would be to seek to transfer the company’s assets and liabilities to a privately or publicly owned company or companies. This is called an energy transfer scheme and is provided for by Schedule 21 to the Energy Act 2004, as applied by Clause 33 of the Bill. While the Secretary of State must approve an energy transfer scheme, the court retains overall responsibility for the process as it appoints the time from which a scheme would take effect.

It is considered that, as the nuclear administrator will need to achieve the objective of the administration order as quickly and efficiently as possible, in practice this may mean that an energy transfer scheme is explored immediately if this is the most viable means to achieve the objective of the administration. This may be supported by the Secretary of State where, amongst other matters, it is in the public interest.

Should neither of the options I mentioned be possible or in the best interests of taxpayers or consumers, Section 40 of the Energy Act 2004 would establish the option of a nuclear transfer scheme. This is subject to approval from Her Majesty’s Treasury and is intended to deal with circumstances where, for example, during the plant’s operational phase, for reasons of public safety or to minimise the costs to the taxpayer, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is given responsibility for decommissioning the plant.

Gazprom Energy

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 24th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to withdraw Gazprom Energy’s licence to operate in the United Kingdom, or (2) to place Gazprom Energy into special administration.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, Gazprom Energy’s parent company has been sanctioned by the UK Government in relation to transferable securities. Our sanctions continue to put pressure on Russia to cease its war on Ukraine. As regards the retail arm in GB, Ofgem and BEIS will continue to work closely with all energy suppliers to ensure that customer supply remains uninterrupted, and we have tried and tested practices in place for situations where suppliers exit the market.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer, but can he explain to the House why it is that a subsidiary of Russian state-controlled Gazprom is continuing to operate in the United Kingdom one month after Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, and when his own colleague in government, the Health Secretary, has been calling on NHS bodies to cancel contracts with the company, and local authorities and businesses are doing the same? Is it not time for the Government to stop dithering and take Gazprom Energy into administration now?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We keep these matters under constant review and the sanctions regime is constantly evolving. The noble Lord will be aware that the Foreign Secretary today sanctioned another 65 new bodies, and we have now sanctioned over 1,000 individuals and businesses since the invasion started.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, it is difficult for me at this stage to comment on individual cases. However, we keep the whole sanctioning regime under constant review and new rounds of sanctions are constantly announced. It is difficult in this case because of the large numbers of essential businesses, schools, hospitals, et cetera that have contracts with Gazprom UK, but we will keep these matters under review.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Can the Minister tell the House how he squares his earlier answer that it is up to individuals, businesses and organisations to make decisions about whether they cancel their contracts with Gazprom with the instruction that his colleague the Health Secretary has given to NHS England that it must withdraw from contracts? With various organisations withdrawing from these contracts—local authorities, health authorities and businesses—is it not almost inevitable that Gazprom will collapse? Would it not make much more sense for the Government to get ahead of this and take Gazprom into special administration now?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Ofgem has a number of processes in place to deal with supplier collapses and we stand ready to put those into effect if they are required. However, these are individual commercial decisions. Local authorities, for instance, are individual legal entities and they have to take their own commercial contractual decisions, but we will support them as much as we possibly can in that process.

Shale Gas Production

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 15th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her remarks. I suspect that she is probably right that there was an unholy alliance between Putin and some of the more extreme end of our environmental movement. Of course, both had the same objective in mind: to rule out shale gas production. Nevertheless, it is important to recognise that there were some serious problems caused by the attempted fracking in Lancashire. I take the point which my noble friend is making. We are not ruling it out. If the scientific objectives can be overcome, and the tremors which were caused can be solved, it is potentially an option for the future.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Is the Minister aware of the remarks made this afternoon upstairs by the former Kenyan Prime Minister and current presidential candidate, Raila Odinga, about the impact of climate change on his country, including increased droughts and flooding and deteriorating food security? Does the Minister share my concern that those advocating fracking do not seem to recognise that it would provide no solution to the current energy crisis, would lock us into dependency on fossil fuels and takes no account of the climate emergency? In this situation, is it not the number one priority to reduce the amount of energy which we are wasting?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I have not seen the remarks to which the noble Lord is referring. Of course, we still have our commitments to net zero, which is now a legally binding commitment, but the reality of this situation, which we have debated many times before, is that there is a need for fossil fuels during the transition—unless we are proposing to disconnect everyone’s gas boiler and stop them driving their cars tomorrow, which I do not think is anyone’s sensible position. We need fossil fuels during the transition. It is unarguable that it makes much more sense to try to get those fossil fuels from our own production, rather than relying on Putin or other unstable parts of the world. Having said that, we also need to progress our nuclear generation capacity and invest in renewables, which we are doing. We are talking about quadrupling our renewables capacity from offshore wind alone, from something like 4 gigawatts up to 10 gigawatts. We need to be doing all those things; we need a diversity of supply.

Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th March 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on this group, particularly to Amendments 2 and 9 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, which I have also signed. I also support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, I come at this from a different perspective from him, but it surely must be right that we are able to identify and verify the ultimate ownership.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, set out, Amendments 2 and 9 seek to ensure that a nuclear power station cannot be owned or part-owned by a company controlled by a foreign state and being operated for investment purposes. However, I was a little surprised to hear her say that the amendment would cover EDF, because that was not my understanding. My understanding was that the amendments would not cover EDF, which is not operating for investment purposes, and that is why

“and operating for investment purposes”

is critical in the definition—but it would cover China General Nuclear Power Group, which does operate for investment purposes. I understood that was why the amendment was tabled and drawn in that specific way, but we can perhaps discuss that further later.

The main point here is the general concern that has been expressed on all sides of the Committee about the involvement of the Chinese state in critical national infrastructure, particularly nuclear. As we know, it currently has a 35% stake in Hinkley C and will have a proposed 20% stake in Sizewell C if that goes ahead. So I imagine that, regardless of our wider views on nuclear, we are all concerned about this issue and need some clarity from the Government on their position on this. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us how the Government intend to proceed with regard to these matters and also answer the important questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howell.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

First, I thank everyone who contributed to this important and well-structured debate. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, for her valuable contributions and for stepping in at the last moment to substitute for the noble Lord, Lord McNicol; having picked up a difficult and complicated subject at such late notice, she did extremely well in moving the amendment.

This group includes Amendments 2, 9, 11, 19, 22 and 24, originally tabled by the noble Lords, Lord McNicol, Lord Oates and Lord Vaux. They have been grouped together because they all address in different ways the ownership of nuclear companies that ultimately may benefit from the RAB model. Let me be clear at the outset, as I was at Second Reading, that the Government emphatically do not support investment in our critical infrastructure at the expense of national security. There is no compromising on that point and I hope to reassure all noble Lords who have spoken during this discussion shortly.

The general purpose of this Bill is to broaden our options when financing new nuclear projects and to widen the pool of potential investors; that is widely understood. It is our expectation that doing this will reduce our reliance on state-owned developers to finance the construction of new nuclear power stations. So I do not consider that Amendment 11 and, as a consequence, Amendment 22 are necessary, for the reason that designation is a robust and transparent process. I make a similar case with regard to Amendment 24. The Committee can be assured that appropriate and robust due diligence will be carried out through to the financial close of every single project, in particular following a capital raise where the financing structure of the project may change as new investment is introduced.

I assure noble Lords—particularly my old sparring partner, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—that the Government have strong oversight of foreign ownership in nuclear projects as a result of the National Security and Investment Act, which includes a wide-ranging ability to call in for assessment qualifying acquisitions if, in our opinion, there are any national security concerns. These are wide-ranging powers. The noble Lord will be aware that we deliberately did not define “national security” during the passage of what became that Act to give ourselves a wide range of flexibility on this subject.

I should add that the Secretary of State may also apply any conditions that he deems appropriate to the designation of a nuclear company—conditions that, if not met, may lead to the company having its designation revoked. Let me also stress—I made this point in a letter to the noble Lord, Lord McNicol—that it is the Government’s intention to take a special share in the Sizewell C project, assuming that the negotiations are successful and the project proceeds to a final investment decision.

I note the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that we should legislate for this sort of safeguard, but I caution him that it is right that the terms of the special share should be negotiated as a commercial agreement, according to the circumstances of every particular RAB project. The projects might be different when they are negotiated, so I think that imposing constraints in primary legislation would be too severe.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I will start with Amendments 5 and 27, laid by the noble Lords, Lord Foster, Lord Wigley, Lord Oates and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. It will not surprise the Committee to know that I have reservations about how these amendments would operate in practice. On Amendment 5, for example, the requirement to publish estimates of the costs payable by consumers at the point of designation would risk undermining the independence of Ofgem, which has responsibility for determining a nuclear company’s allowed revenue in accordance with its modified generation licence.

Moreover, the obligations to report on the price of electricity, or the minimum floor price, referred to in Amendment 27, simply do not align with the reality of how we expect the RAB model to operate in practice. Under the model, there is no minimum floor price. Ofgem, in its role as the regime’s economic regulator, will need to determine the revenue the project is entitled to receive, in accordance with its modified electricity generation licence.

Finally, on decommissioning costs, we already have robust legal requirements in place in the Energy Act 2008, which require an operator to have a funded decommissioning programme in place before construction can commence on a new nuclear project. This must set out the operator’s costed plans for dealing with decommissioning and waste management. For these reasons, I am unable to accept the amendments.

Turning to the comments made earlier in the debate by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, under the RAB model, the regular price reviews would provide an opportunity to assess the performance of the FDP, and adjustments to the operator’s allowed revenue can then be made should any potential deficiency in the fund be identified. This will deal with the noble Lord’s concern, minimise any chances of a fund shortfall and ensure the operator retains its responsibility to meet the costs of decommissioning so they do not fall on local communities. I hope that this provides the reassurance that the noble Lord was seeking.

Amendments 12, 18, 25 and 32, from the noble Lords, Lord McNicol, Lord Foster, Lord Oates and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, are aimed at obliging the Secretary of State to publish various pieces of information related to the functioning and implementation of the RAB regime. I fully understand noble Lords’ desire for more information, but think this is already addressed in the Bill.

On the publication of licence modifications, Clause 6(9) already provides that modifications made under Clause 6 would not come into effect unless a revenue collection contract was entered into with the nuclear company. Publishing them as soon as reasonably practicable will provide adequate opportunity for scrutiny.

On Amendment 12, the Bill already obliges the Secretary of State to publish a statement setting out how they expect to determine whether the designation criteria have been met. This statement will provide further explanation as to how the Secretary of State expects to determine whether the development of a project is “sufficiently advanced”. While, as I said, we will publish a statement in due course, I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and the Committee that we would expect it to include consideration of a number of factors, including, for example, the progress of the prospective project through the important planning process.

On Amendment 18, where it is assessed that it would be appropriate for development funding to be included in the calculation of a nuclear RAB company’s allowed revenue, this would in turn be reflected in the company’s modified licence. Outside of the RAB structure, the Government may choose to provide development funding to projects to mature technologies and de-risk the development and construction phases. However, as this is not intended to be funded through the RAB scheme, it would be inappropriate to include information requirements about it in the Bill. They will be published in other quarters.

On Amendment 25, Clause 6(2) already states that the licence modification powers can be used only for the purpose of facilitating investment in the design, construction, commissioning and operation of nuclear energy generation projects. The Secretary of State may not exercise the powers for any other purpose. This is aligned with the consideration that the amendment discusses. I believe that the transparency processes already included in the Bill, the obligation to publish a statement on the designation criteria and the opportunity for scrutiny before the designation and licence modification powers may be exercised render these amendments unnecessary.

The final amendment on transparency is Amendment 28 from the noble Lords, Lord Foster and Lord Oates. It seeks to make the licence modifications necessary to implement the RAB model for a nuclear company contingent on approval by the House of Commons of a report about consumer bill impacts.

Bringing a project to the point where licence modifications can be made is likely to require significant investment. I submit that making a project subject to a parliamentary vote at that very late stage of licence modification would add huge uncertainty to the outcome of developers’ investment. This additional uncertainty would make it very much harder to bring forward projects —which is possibly the purpose of the amendment—and lead to either an absence of new projects or the costs of financing being raised significantly to take account of the increased risks. That would inevitably result in much worse value for consumers. The amendment could therefore defeat the policy objective of the Bill: to secure financing for new nuclear projects in a way that could deliver better value for money for consumers.

To reiterate, in rejecting the amendments put forward, the Government are not attempting to hide from challenge or scrutiny. Through this Bill, we have created a clear and transparent process for implementing the RAB model. It will allow for the voices of experts and stakeholders to be heard and appropriate consultation to be carried out. That will help ensure that the model works for the industry and, above all, for consumers. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly as time is marching on. I think the Minister told us that the reason why Amendment 5 would not work is basically that the Government cannot tell us how much this will all cost the consumer, which is one of our key worries about this means of financing.

On Amendment 12 and the definition of “sufficiently advanced”, my noble friend Lord Foster raised a number of specific issues in relation to Sizewell C and asked whether, in view of those, the project would be regarded as sufficiently advanced. The Minister notably did not answer that question but repeated his previous statement that the Government will publish the designation criteria “in due course”. Again, what he is telling us is that the Government will not tell us what those are before they expect noble Lords to vote on the Bill. As my noble friend said, whatever one’s views for or against nuclear power, that is surely not a way to do legislation.

I hope that the Minister will consider carefully all the issues that have been raised in this group. If you are pro nuclear, I would have thought that transparency was a good thing, but, certainly, I hope that he will consider these issues and come back with some clearer answers for us on Report. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I realise that time is getting on, so I will be as brief as possible. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Foster, for Amendments 33, 34, 35 and 36. As most of the material is similar, I will take them together, starting with Amendments 33 and 36.

By way of background, I will explain the purpose of Clause 13. Four amendments have been tabled to it, but I reassure noble Lords and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe that this clause is in no way designed to act as a “free pass” for the Government. It is a narrowly drawn provision, allowing for the exclusion of specific, sensitive, commercial and national security information only. I want to be upfront and clear about that. From looking at their detail, I do not believe these amendments will achieve what I suspect is noble Lords’ goal to increase transparency. Actually, they could cause extra confusion.

Amendment 33 makes the publication of relevant material the “primary duty” of the Secretary of State, and so would effectively place transparency above the protection of national security. I submit that this is intuitively wrong; it would be dangerous to subordinate national security concerns to publication concerns.

Amendment 36 would require the Secretary of State to make statements to Parliament about the seriousness of the potential impact of the release of information on the commercial interests of companies and how this is balanced against the public interest in disclosure. This creates ambiguity around the protection of commercial interests, which could have a serious impact on the ability of a project to raise the necessary investment. It would either make it harder to bring forward new projects or, alternatively, raise the cost of financing those projects; either way would result in worse value for consumers. I submit that it also goes against a basic tenet of commercial negotiations and operations: that an investor’s commercial interests will be treated respectfully and confidentially.

Amendments 34 and 35 similarly seek to restrict what information can be excluded from publication or disclosure under Part 1 on the grounds of national security or prejudicing commercial interests. Similar to the previous amendments, the suggestions made in these amendments would add unnecessary and unhelpful ambiguity to an otherwise straightforward provision. Again, this would introduce additional uncertainty for both the Government and potential developers.

Looking first at the addition of “in exceptional circumstances”, there is no obvious legal understanding or definition of what such circumstances would be. This would create uncertainty as to when the provision could be used and what information could be redacted. The circumstances in which Clause 13 applies are already sufficiently set out in its subsection (2). Similarly, given that “seriously” has no clear definition in this context, I submit that the addition of this term would add to the uncertainty and ambiguity about whether legitimate commercial interests would be respected for potential investors. I think that it would make them less likely to go on to be involved in projects.

I understand the desire for increased transparency behind these amendments, but I hope that, given the legal uncertainty of the wording used, I have been able to reassure noble Lords that the Government have no intention of hiding any information that we do not strictly need to in order to respect commercial confidences, so I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not press their amendments.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I am afraid that I am not entirely reassured by it, because there is a lot of talk in this Bill about protecting commercial interests but there seems to be little about protecting consumers’ interests. This Bill imposes burdens on consumers, and it is only right that they have available to them information to understand how decisions are made.

I will certainly go away and think about the points that the Minister made. I make it clear that the aim of this amendment was not to compromise the Secretary of State’s ability to exclude material on grounds of national security; I fully accept that that may well be necessary. It may be that the current Minister would not use this test to withhold large amounts of material, but that certainly seems possible, and I think that there needs to be a much firmer test to protect the consumer. No doubt we will come back to these amendments, or versions of them, on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Russian Oil and Gas Imports

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course we need a diverse mix of energy, which this Question is about, and to generate as much of our own power as possible. The noble and gallant Lord makes a good point about reducing our dependence on autocracies.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that, if we think we can solve the current fossil fuel crisis by pretending that the clear and present danger of climate change does not exist, we will simply call down a far greater catastrophe on the world? Does he agree that the answer to the fossil fuel crisis is to invest to get off them as soon as possible, not to burn more of them?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The answer to the high price of oil, gas and fossil fuels is to use less of them. To that extent I agree with the noble Lord. That is why we are generating as much as we possibly can from renewables. That is why we accelerated the contracts for difference round, why we have one of the largest capacities in the world, and why we need to expand it even further.

Revised Energy National Policy Statements

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who contributed to this debate. As always, it has been interesting and informative, if not all directly related to the subject under discussion—I am looking at the noble Baroness, Lady Jones; I will come on to that in a minute. I will address many of the points made in turn, but first I will bring the Committee back to the subject under discussion and will talk about the energy national policy statements.

Our world-leading agenda to transform the energy system requires a planning framework for nationally significant infrastructure which can process the pace and scale of planning decisions in line with this transformation. Updated energy NPSs are critical to achieving this. The review will make the policy framework for the provision of energy infrastructure clearer and more up to date.

In the context of the wider reform programme for nationally significant infrastructure, up-to-date energy NPSs will support project sponsors, the Planning Inspectorate and ultimately the Secretary of State in timely consideration and decisions over when and how to provide significant to critical infrastructure.

We believe that the documents we have consulted on and which are being examined by the committee of the other House at the moment strike the right balance between the need for new energy infrastructure and the impact that such infrastructure will have, and they will enable planning decisions to be taken at the required pace.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and many other noble Lords who have used this debate to make some interesting and wide-ranging comments on energy policy. However, I repeat that our purpose today is to consider whether the NPSs are fit for purpose in performing their critical purpose, which is to provide a legal framework for planning decisions on nationally significant energy infrastructure.

I thank my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for her comments on timing and security of supply. Within that, the NPS establishes the need for the infrastructure required to deliver the energy objectives. This includes ensuring that we have a supply that is secure and reliable as well as consistent with our net-zero ambitions.

A number of noble Lords, including my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady McIntosh, the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, asked me about the timetable for future reviews. Of course, there will be change over time, and we will review the documents when appropriate—so I do not want to give an absolute commitment to a specific time; we will do it as required. The exact timing of a review will depend on the specific circumstances that apply in the case of each national policy statement, but it is expected that a public announcement on whether a review is required should be made at least every five years. This reflects the position that was set out in the Government’s published guidance.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for his comments on biodiversity. He will be aware that Schedule 15 to the Environment Act 2021 introduced specific requirements for biodiversity net gain in relation to NSIP development. This schedule is not yet in force, and Defra is currently consulting on exactly how it will be implemented. Of course, the NPS will be amended to bring it in line with the Environment Act before it is designated.

I welcome the comments from my noble friend Lord Moynihan and my noble friend Lady Foster’s support for the energy NPS. I can assure both of them that the NPS recognises the need for continued investment in oil and gas infrastructure during the transition to clean energy. It was recognised also by the climate change committee that we will continue to need oil and gas infrastructure during the transition. I think some of the simplistic exponents sometimes miss the point that this is a long-term transition. Unless we want to unplug people’s boilers or stop them putting petrol in their car tomorrow, there is an ongoing requirement for investment, and it makes more sense to obtain oil and gas from our own reserves than to import it from Russia, Qatar, Saudi Arabia or American shale gas reserves through the medium of LPG.

I say in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, that we believe that the draft NPS strikes the right balance between clarity on the need for the types of infrastructure required to deliver on our climate commitments and retaining security of supply and identifying the potentially negative impacts of such infrastructure at local level. This enables planning decisions to be taken which weigh this national need against these potential impacts, based on expert evidence and, of course, on full stakeholder involvement. Of course, there will always be different views on whether we have got this balance right, and we are currently analysing the responses to the public consultation. We will take account of these and any resolutions or recommendations from the parliamentary scrutiny process before issuing our final response.

The draft NPS reflects the work of the offshore transmission network review and the policy is written to support that work. Future changes will depend on the outcome of the OTNR. The urgency and scale of offshore wind farm development—I remind the Committee that there is to be a fourfold increase by 2030—mean that radial routes to shore are in many cases not viable given the environmental and community impacts.

I say to my noble friend Lady McIntosh that we recognise the desire for a settled siting policy for new nuclear and we are seeking to deliver a robust and comprehensive framework. Three years is the rough working estimate to develop, consult and deliver on an NPS. I can assure my noble friend that a new nuclear NPS will be subject to the same requirements of public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny as these energy NPSs. I can also assure her that the NPSs cover climate change adaptation and mitigation—mitigation is covered by part 2 and new section 5.2 of EN-1.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones—where to start? In her wide-ranging contribution, I lost count of the number of questions that she asked me. I think I got up to about 25 before I lost count. The noble Baroness will, of course, appreciate that in the context of this short debate it is not possible to answer all her points. I am sure that we will have lots of debates and questions on these subjects in future. Of course, I do not think that any of her questions had anything to do with the subject of this debate, which is on the NPS. I am afraid that the noble Baroness knows that we disagree over this. A lot of her solutions sound great, but they are overly simplistic nonsense in most cases.

In many respects, I agree with the noble Baroness. Of course, we want to see more renewables. We have the largest offshore renewable capacity in the world—and we going to increase it fourfold. It has been a British success story; the price of new offshore wind is now at record low levels. It is a good thing, but it is inherently intermittent. During the recent stormy weather, we saw that wind generation for the UK was up to almost 50% of our capacity, which is great, but a few months ago, when we had a weather depression, we saw wind capacity at about 2% to 3% of our national energy needs. We need a diverse mix of supply—so we need nuclear and existing oil and gas infrastructure and supply and, yes, we need renewables as well.

I do not disagree with the noble Baroness. Of course, we want to see energy efficiency schemes, as energy efficiency is by far the best form of generation; the energy that you do not use is required. We are spending £9.2 billion over this Parliament on energy efficiency and insulation schemes. I am proud of our record. Of course, we can have an argument over whether we should be spending even more, but as regards our levels of investment compared to any previous Government, we are spending record sums on environmental schemes. On ECO alone, the contribution that we are making to that is going up to £1 billion a year, starting in March this year, in addition to the £9.2 billion that we are investing through direct government support. The vast majority of that is going to help fuel-poor households and those on lower incomes to benefit from increased investment and increased energy efficiency in their homes, to make their bills smaller and their homes warmer. That is a key point.

I assure the noble Baroness that we will have time to debate all her many questions and points in future, but I hope that she will forgive me if I do not address all those issues now, because it is not a matter for today’s debate.

In response to my noble friend Lord Naseby, of course we need to preserve our most productive farmland as best we can, which is why the draft NPS continues to advise that the effective use of land is prioritised by focusing large-scale solar farms on previously developed and non-agricultural land, provided that it is not of high environmental value. It also suggests that, when a proposal involves greenfield land, poorer-quality land should be used in preference to higher-quality land.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, the draft energy NPS set out the Government’s policy for delivering nationally significant energy infrastructure and providing a legal framework for planning decisions at the national level. This includes balancing the need for new infrastructure against the impacts of such infrastructure. It will provide guidance on some of the issues that the noble Lord raised, such as the presumption in favour of underground cables in areas of natural beauty, but many of the important issues raised by the noble Lord, such as energy efficiency and housing, are outside the scope of these documents.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I am grateful for the Minister’s response, but could he address one specific question that I asked about guidance on community mitigation? This is something that the industry is really clear on—that it needs to have guidance, because it is going to have to bring onshore lots of cable and lots of new energy infrastructure. It really needs clarity from government about what it should be doing there. I would be grateful if the Minister could address that point.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

During the planning process itself, community mitigations will be taken into account, providing the national framework to enable local planning decisions to be taken. Community mitigations of course play an important part in the planning process.

As I said earlier in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, improving the energy efficiency of homes is the most effective way to permanently reduce energy bills by reducing the amount of energy required to heat the home, and it can tackle fuel poverty in the long term. I covered all the schemes that we have, including ECO, home upgrade grants, the local authority delivery scheme, the public sector decarbonisation scheme and the social housing decarbonisation scheme—myriad different schemes, all contributing quietly and in the background to upping the energy performance of the homes that we all live in.

The noble Lord also mentioned the need for clarity in the approach to CCUS and hydrogen. The NPS establishes the need for CCUS and hydrogen infrastructure, but we do not want prematurely to introduce detailed guidance before we know more about the impact of such projects. We will consider whether to develop a technology-specific NPS for CCUS and hydrogen infrastructure as the technology and the project landscape evolves.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, asked how many consent decisions have been made under the current regime. The answer is that 65 decisions on energy projects have been made under the existing suite of energy NPSs. We are, of course, expecting a significant increase in the number of applications as the transition to net zero continues. He also asked about onshore wind. It was removed from the NSIP regime in 2016 through amendments to the Planning Act 2008. This means that all planning applications for onshore wind turbines in England are made to the local planning authority, or to the Welsh Government in Wales. As national policy statements are statutory guidance, and as onshore wind is now not included in the 2008 Act, it was no longer appropriate for the national policy statements to provide specific policies in relation to onshore wind.

Finally, to reply to my noble friend Lady Foster’s point about fracking, it is important to realise that Lancashire is not Texas. The UK is a relatively densely populated island compared to most parts of the US. Although we are not in principle against the idea of fracking, it must be done with the consent of local communities and we need to be aware of its environmental impact. Also, as we discussed during Questions in the House a few weeks ago, it is not the short-term answer that many people think it is. Even if we managed to overcome all the environmental objections, and even if we managed to progress the scheme, it would be many years, if not a decade, before we got meaningful quantities of shale gas out of the ground. Even then, the quantities that we would be able to produce in this country would have no meaningful impact on the overall gas price level. We continue to keep these matters under review, but it does not represent the easy solution that we might like to think it would in this circumstance.

Cost of Living

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and admire him for his prescience in selecting such an appropriate subject for debate today. He must have had more advance notice than even I had of when the Government’s announcements were coming, so congratulations to him on a very timely and informative intervention. Of course, I am grateful to everyone who has contributed today on this topical but also extremely vital subject. I will try to address as many of the points as possible that noble Lords raised, but this has been a wide-ranging debate and, if I do not manage to cover everything, I am sure that we can catch up in writing.

The Government of course recognise and understand the pressures that people are facing with the cost of living and we will continue to listen to people’s concerns, as we have done throughout the pandemic. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Monks, and many other speakers in recognising that this is a timely debate, with the energy regulator’s announcement just a few hours ago and the Chancellor’s announcement on the back of that. The regulator’s announcement was for the period April to September 2022.

In a recent debate secured by my noble friend Lady McIntosh, I set out that wholesale energy prices have been rising, as we all know, due to increases in the price of wholesale gas, to which multiple international factors have contributed. I start by reiterating that energy security remains an absolute priority for the Government and we are confident that our energy security will be maintained. We continue to work closely with key industry organisations, including Ofgem and National Grid gas, to monitor both supply and demand. In response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, we meet around half of our annual gas supply through domestic production and the vast majority of our imports come from reliable suppliers such as Norway.

As I have said before in the House, the energy price cap has, for the last six months, protected millions of households during the winter period from the volatility seen in wholesale gas prices. The Government have committed to retaining powers to implement a price cap beyond the current long-stop date of 2023, should that prove necessary. However, as noble Lords will know, sadly, the rising wholesale costs of energy have now fed into the price cap’s methodology, leading the independent—I emphasise that—regulator, Ofgem, to increase the level at which the price cap is set. Recognising the impact that this will have on households, I am pleased to update the House, as the Chancellor did this morning in the other place, that the Government are taking action on the back of this.

Today the Chancellor announced a £5.6 billion energy bills rebate, which will help households to deal with the unprecedented increase in energy bills that we have seen this year by helping to smooth the costs over subsequent years. The rebate, which will shortly be consulted on by my department, will provide households with a payment of £200, which will be credited to their energy bills by their current energy supplier. This rebate will likely start issuing payments to energy suppliers to pass on to their household customers from autumn this year, which of course is when households will need it most as we head into the winter period next year.

In response to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, let me make it clear that while the mechanism will be subject to consultation, this scheme is not a loan. No interest will be charged on the upfront funding provided by the Exchequer. The Government will seek to recoup the funding at a later stage, smoothing out the cost increases we have witnessed in the wholesale energy markets. The department will work closely with industry and consumer groups on how we can best deliver this policy, with a consultation planned for the spring.

This is an important and timely measure, which will help households at a time when they need it most. In addition, the Government have announced further support for delivery outside of the energy system to help with the wider cost of living. We have also today announced a £150 payment for the 80% of English households in council tax bands A through D. This measure will be worth the equivalent of more than 2.5% of net income in 2022-23 to the poorest 10th of households, compared with less than 0.5% to the richest 10th. In addition, there is £144 million of discretionary funding for local authorities to support households who need support but for some reason are not eligible for that council tax rebate. The combined package could see some households receive £350 over the coming financial year to help them with the cost of living. This is worth some £9.1 billion.

This new support package is on top of the existing set of measures in place to support families, worth around £12 billion a year. These include energy-specific measures targeting the fuel poor. The noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Oates, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh mentioned the warm home discount scheme which provides support with energy bills through rebates, helping households stay warm in the winter months. The scheme currently provides over 2 million low-income and vulnerable households with a £140 rebate off their winter energy bills. I am pleased to confirm to noble Lords that BEIS has already consulted on proposals which would expand the scheme from around £350 million to £475 million per year, at 2020 prices, which will help the scheme reach 3 million households from winter next year onwards.

On the very important subject of energy efficiency, I am afraid I have to tell the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, that she is simply wrong. The energy company obligation has already installed 3.3 million measures in 2.3 million homes. We are increasing, not cutting, the amount energy suppliers invest in energy efficiency measures for low-income households. From April this year, the start of the next financial year, this will be extended until 2026 and we are boosting its value from £640 million to £1 billion a year, helping the poorest households to install the energy efficiency measures that many noble Lords referred to.

In addition, for the benefit of noble Lords who raised the issue, such as the noble Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Shipley, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Scott and Lady Bennett—amazingly I agree with one point the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, made—the best form of green energy is indeed not using it in the first place, through energy efficiency measures. This is precisely why we are investing over £2 billion a year in energy efficiency schemes, through projects such as the home upgrade grant, the local authority delivery scheme, the sustainable warmth competition and the social housing decarbonisation fund. All of these are helping to provide long-term solutions by improving the energy efficiency of the homes of the poorest people in society—exactly those who should be deserving of our support.

In addition to all that, the Department for Work and Pensions has a set of measures to support households with their energy bills. The £500 million support fund was announced last autumn to help those most in need this winter. This includes provision for utility costs, including energy. The DWP also continues to provide support for vulnerable users and pensioners through its winter fuel payment and cold weather payment.

Picking up on some of the points made by noble Lords, the debate was well introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who asked a number of questions, as indeed did the noble Lord, Lord Oates, about the retail market and supplier failures. As a result of high gas prices, some 26 suppliers have exited the market since the beginning of August 2021. The current situation has been precipitated by unprecedented conditions. In the vast majority of those cases, the Government and Ofgem have utilised the supplier of last resort process, which has been set up to protect customers when their supplier fails to ensure that they do not suffer any disruption or lose any of their credit balances. Ofgem and the Government will continue to look at ways to reduce the costs that arise from a supplier of last resort process, but it is clear that it is a vital safety net that has protected millions of consumers. Last October, Ofgem published a letter to industry setting out the actions that it will take to reform the retail market. This includes reviewing licence conditions to strengthen the financial resilience of suppliers and help restore stability to the sector.

I was also asked about retail market reform. The Government want a retail energy market that continues to protect consumers now and as we transition to net zero, while engaging them with positive choices about their energy supply. We want a competitive market whereby companies invest in innovation and offer products and services that help us in our drive to decarbonisation.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, talked about retail market regulation to support progress to net zero. In considering these reforms, the Government will take account of the lessons of the current market. In fact, we published a call for evidence on the future of the retail energy market. A strategy will be published as soon as possible once the current market situation has stabilised.

The noble Lord, Lord Oates, raised the issue of funding our future policy costs to deliver net-zero policy. He will be aware that, as set out in the heat and buildings strategy, we will publish a fairness and affordability call for evidence to set out the options for energy levies and obligations to help rebalance electricity and gas prices and to support green choices, with a view to taking final decisions in 2022. Consumers will be at the heart of those decisions.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

The one question that the Minister has not answered is what the Government’s estimate is of the added cost to bills as a result of the 26 energy company failures that he mentioned. Citizens Advice estimates that it has put £93 on bills. Do the Government have a figure?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not have a precise figure in front of me. It is a complicated issue because it depends on exactly where the costs fall but if the figures are available, I will write to the noble Lord with as much information as I am able to provide.

In response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on national insurance rises, the lowest earners will, of course, be protected from the levy. The highest-earning 15% will pay over half the revenue and 6.1 million people earning less than the primary threshold or lower profits limit will not pay the levy at all. Regarding the rebate adding costs to bills further down the line, the aim of the policy is to reduce energy bills for households in Great Britain in 2022-23; it is to be paid back automatically and interest-free over the next five years. This is a fiscally responsible approach that helps customers to manage the unprecedented increase in energy bills by spreading the increased costs of global prices over time.

My noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford, as he normally does, made some good points about our overall energy strategy. He will be aware that the energy White Paper set out a vision for transforming our energy system, backed up by practical action. We will address the decarbonisation of the power sector on a whole-system basis so that we deliver low emissions and maintain high levels of reliability and resistance, while ensuring that the cost of the transition is fair and affordable. The Government are taking a range of important steps to decarbonise the power sector, while establishing business models to support hydrogen-fired generation, new nuclear and CCUS-enabled generation, and to support the development of flexible storage.

I agreed with many of the sensible comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, from whose expertise in this area we have benefited. He reminded us—it is worth making this point—that these are difficult, complicated issues, which need long-term holistic solutions. Of course, we are all searching for a simple, easy answer, but many of these issues take decades to come about. One issue that I could highlight is that of new nuclear. The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, criticised us for not developing new nuclear, but these projects take decades to bring about. The main reason for the decline in the nuclear industry in the UK was that Labour abandoned our nuclear programme when it came to power in 1997. For the whole of its period in government, no progress whatsoever was made on new nuclear. We are now reversing that and proceeding with new nuclear developments, but it takes many decades to bring them online. I believe that, in considering our energy system, that decision will prove to be one of the biggest mistakes in energy policy over recent decades.

The noble Lords, Lord Shipley, Lord Monks, Lord Sikka and Lord Oates, the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and other noble Lords raised the issue of a windfall tax. It is worth pointing out that the UK Government already place additional taxes on the extraction of oil and gas, with companies engaged in the production of oil and gas on the UK continental shelf subject to headline tax rates on their profits that are currently more than double those paid by other businesses. To date, the sector has paid more than £375 billion in production taxes. We are always considering a full range of options to support consumers and businesses through the current high price challenges, but it is important to remember that any action that we take must not have broader negative consequences for the economy.

All Peers have referred to the importance of attracting investment and achieving our energy goals, which will require vast investment from the private sector in our energy system. If the Government woke up one morning and imposed windfall taxes, however attractive that might sound, that would massively impact the amount of inward investment that we attract into the country. While the dividends of those companies have been criticised, we should never forget that many of those dividends go into paying the pension funds that help to pay the pensions of the many pensioners that noble Lords highlighted who might be suffering from fuel poverty this winter. There are never any easy, simple or straightforward solutions to these problems, however much we might want to think that there are.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh raised the important issue, as she often does, of off-gas-grid consumers. The Government believe that it is essential that consumers of LPG and heating oil get a fair deal. In our view, the LPG and heating oil markets do not share the monopoly characteristics of network utilities and are therefore not subject to price regulation under Ofgem. However, I can tell my noble friend that the energy rebate announced today is being passed through to suppliers to pass on to domestic energy users, including off-gas-grid consumers, who are, of course, electricity customers.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked for estimates of the number of homes struggling. We regularly publish updated fuel poverty statistics, including projections for 2022, taking into account the price cap increase and the measures announced today. We will publish those on 24 February. In addition, Ofgem regularly publishes its statistics on vulnerable consumers and indebtedness through its consumer protection and vulnerability reports.

Lastly, the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, spoke about the important subject of hydrogen. We are committed to the development of hydrogen as a strategic decarbonised energy carrier for the UK. We are currently taking a twin-track approach, covering both electrolytic hydrogen from renewables and methane reformation with carbon capture, usage and storage. Both methods of production are covered by innovation schemes and policy development.

As I have set out, the Government have listened, recognised and acted on the concerns of families struggling with the cost of living. As I said at the start, the energy bills rebate will provide over £5.6 billion of support to households later this year, ahead of the next winter period, while the additional support for English homes in council tax bands A to D will further help households with the cost of living—a total package worth £9.1 billion. Of course, the Government will continue to engage with industry, consumer groups and other stakeholders as we progress these measures and I am sure that we will have further debates as these policies develop in the coming months.

Net-zero Test for New Policies

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, but the reason my Answer was very similar to a few months ago was that the Question was very similar to the one she asked me a few months ago. We have taken new approaches to embed net zero in spending decisions, including requiring departments to include the greenhouse gas emissions of their spending review bids and their impact on meeting carbon budgets and net zero. There is a huge amount of co-ordination taking place across government and between this Government and the devolved Administrations in helping us to meet our goals.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Does the Minister agree with the same letter where it says that we must

“ensure the competitiveness of UK businesses is not disadvantaged by imports that do not have the same carbon costs”?

If so, why is it that the only thing the Treasury’s Net Zero Review has to say in the way of action on carbon leakage is that

“a case for conducting a formal call for evidence may emerge.”

Is that not a woefully complacent approach which puts at risk British industry and British jobs?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that the competitiveness of UK industry is extremely important. The question he is asking is effectively about the carbon border adjustment mechanism which the EU and others are considering. I am sure that the noble Lord would be the first to accept that this is a complicated and difficult policy area. It cuts across various WTO and international trade commitments. I can see in principle the case for what he is saying, but it is a complicated area.

Net-zero Emissions

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 7th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct about the timescale for taking a decision on hydrogen. It is not yet a mature technology in terms of whether it would be available in sufficient quantities on a wide enough scale to be used for home heating. We are funding a large series of trials, moving towards a hydrogen neighbourhood, a hydrogen village and then a hydrogen town-level trial before we can advise people to take that forward. In the meantime, we have set our ambition to phase out the sale of gas boilers by 2035.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the concern expressed by the Climate Change Committee over the lack of an integrated offer on home retrofit for home owners who want to upgrade the energy efficiency of their homes? What do the Government intend to do to work with industry to correct this clear market failure?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are working closely with industry to work up the offers we have to householders, as well as the myriad government schemes targeting mainly low-income families: the £800 million social housing decarbonisation fund, the £950 million home upgrade grants, et cetera. Then, of course, we have the £450 million boiler upgrade scheme launching in April next year to subsidise the installation of heat pumps.

Oil and Gas Authority: Remit

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 2nd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know my noble friend speaks with great authority on this as a former Energy Minister himself, and I agree with him. Of course, the ultimate solution to the problem of high gas prices is to use less of it. Indeed, we are doing that, and we are continuing to develop our renewable sources. We have one of the largest productions of renewable sources in the western world. However, fossil fuel generation, such as unabated gas-fired generation, currently plays an important role in keeping Britain’s electricity system secure and stable. The development of clean energy technologies means that it will be used less frequently in future, but it will still be required.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. I think it is the Minister, rather than the Liberal Democrats, who may be failing to grasp the implications of the Government’s own policy. But is the Minister aware that if warming is kept to well below 2 degrees in line with the Paris Agreement, new oilfields such as Cambo will become stranded assets? In the light of that, will the Government ensure that the risks that such stranded assets pose to financial stability are properly reflected in increased capital adequacy requirements for those institutions that continue to finance them?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We have a role in the licensing of future developments, but whether to proceed with them is, of course, a commercial decision for the operators concerned. I am sure they will bear the noble Lord’s comments in mind. I am sure many of the big companies would not wish to end up with stranded assets either.

Climate Change: Global Temperatures

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Some noble Members opposite have obviously listened to a different Budget from the one that was actually announced. We have £1 billion-worth of funding for carbon capture, usage and storage proposals. The noble Baroness will be aware that, only the other day, we announced the first two clusters in north-west and north-east England. These are world-leading, exciting proposals; no one else in the world is being as ambitious as we are on CCUS.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, returning to the issue of domestic air passenger duty, does the Minister recognise that short-haul flights are the most carbon-intensive form of travel? Ahead of COP 26, what signal does the Minister believe it sends to announce a cut to domestic air passenger duty while presiding over a record rise in rail fares—one of the least carbon-intensive forms of travel?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I refer the noble Lord to the answer that I just gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. Many communities in the United Kingdom rely on air travel for international and internal connectivity. Some parts of our nation are islands, separated by water that trains do not go across. Therefore, it is important to retain connectivity. At the same time, the Chancellor also announced an increase in long-haul air passenger duty.

Energy Prices: Electricity Bills

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Many of these energy-intensive industries are already freed from the cost of the emissions trading scheme by being issued with free permits but, beyond that, the noble Lord makes a good point. My colleague the Secretary of State is regularly in urgent discussions with all these industries and, of course, we are urgently seeking a solution across government as to how we can do something to help.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

The Minister will be aware of the bitter irony at this time of energy crisis that some £1 billion was spent in the last 12 months on paying wind generators not to generate energy. We need a proper energy policy that builds storage. When will the Government come forward with storage solutions that mean that this energy is generated and directed to green hydrogen, battery storage, compressed air or other forms or storage?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course, we do have a comprehensive energy policy. Many of the technologies that the noble Lord refers to are difficult and expensive, but we are funding research into a lot of them. The problem with electricity, as the noble Lord will be aware, is that it is very difficult and expensive to store on a large scale.

Emissions Trading Scheme: Transport

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 11th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my interests as set out in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK Emissions Trading Scheme replaced the UK’s participation in the EU Emissions Trading Scheme on 1 January 2021. The UK ETS applies to energy intensive industries, power generation and aviation. In the energy White Paper we

“committed to exploring expanding the UK ETS to the two thirds of uncovered emissions”,

and we will set out our aspirations in due course.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer, but could he give the House some indication of the timescale in which the Government intend to bring shipping within the UK ETS? If they do not intend to do so, what alternative approach will they take to curtailing maritime emissions, which are currently forecast to rise by 50% by 2050?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I recognise the points the noble Lord makes and he will be aware that, in the transport decarbonisation plan, there is a commitment to assess how economic instruments could be used to accelerate decarbonisation measures alongside all the other aspirations of the plan.

Climate Change

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Achieving the targets that we have already set will be difficult enough. I like the noble Baroness’s ambition to go even further and faster, but I think that we will stick with what we have got for the moment.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, a year ago when I asked the Minister whether it was not about time that the Government had a credible short-term action plan to tackle the climate emergency, he replied:

“Indeed, and we will be setting this out in due course.”—[Official Report, 6/10/20; col. 517.]


In light of the IPCC report, which makes it clear that global warming of between 1.5 and 2 degrees will be exceeded this century without drastic cuts in emissions, when can we expect to see that credible short-term action plan? I emphasise “credible”.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said in response to the previous question, we have published a number of our strategies. The heat and buildings strategy is to be published shortly; the net-zero strategy will be published before COP. We need to set an example, and we intend to do just that. These are difficult decisions involving a lot of different players within government, but we will endeavour to do so as quickly as possible.

Human Rights Due Diligence

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 20th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right; this is indeed a complicated subject with a lot of different areas for consideration. We need to be careful not to impose undue burdens, particularly on small businesses.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I hope the Minister will agree that Governments as well as businesses have a moral duty of due diligence on human rights. Can he therefore tell the House what due diligence the Government conducted prior to chartering a flight to deport Zimbabwe nationals tomorrow to a country where human rights are consistently violated? Will the Government now halt that flight and place a moratorium on further deportations until the Zimbabwean Government can demonstrate that they respect the human rights of their citizens and the rule of law?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I admire the noble Lord’s ingenuity in getting a question on deportation flights into one considering forest communities. I do not have the information about that particular flight—I was not aware of it—so I will write to him.

Hydrogen Economy

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some good points, but the reality is that we do not yet know what the best make-up for heating will be further into the coming decades. It will likely be a mix of fuel pumps, hydrogen heating and heat networks.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister has told us that the Government are pursuing a twin-track approach between green and blue hydrogen, but they have allocated nearly £200 million to five blue hydrogen projects and none for green, despite the fact that the Government do not anticipate blue hydrogen projects coming onstream until the mid-2020s. What immediate steps do the Government intend to take to develop our green hydrogen industry and ensure we do not squander the competitive edge we currently hold in green hydrogen technology?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the reality is that we need to develop both. The UK has expertise and assets to support both electrolytic and CCUS-enabled hydrogen production, and by enabling multiple low-carbon production routes, we can drive cost-effective supply volumes through the 2020s—in line with the 2030 strategy that I mentioned earlier of 5 gigawatts of hydrogen to be produced.

Steel Sector

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am pleased that the noble Lord welcomed the decision that was taken with regard to the recommendations of the Trade Remedies Authority. Of course, we keep all these matters under constant review but, as I said, we will continue to work with the sector to see what new opportunities there are and how we can help it in future.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Can the Minister tell the House what plans the Government have to exploit the UK’s lead in the manufacture of the electrolysers used for green hydrogen production—manufacturing which is based in the great steel city of Sheffield—in order to make the UK the global hub for green steel production?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right that hydrogen-based steel making is one of the many technological approaches we are looking at for the sector’s future. We announced the £250 million clean steel fund to support the UK steel sector to transition to low-carbon production, and we plan to establish the net-zero hydrogen fund with £240 million of capital co-investment to 2024.

Climate Change

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said in my earlier answer, the noble Lord will have to be a little bit patient and wait for the sector strategies that are coming out, which will help to address his point—but I do not accept that we have not done anything. We have taken action on transport with a £5 billion package and we have spent £3 billion on buildings and £1 billion on carbon capture, et cetera, et cetera. So we have done a lot, but I totally accept that we have much to do.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Can the Minister assure the House that at the very least no decision to approve the Cambo heavy crude field, or any other oil and gas field in UK jurisdiction, will be taken without subjecting it to the test of whether it is compatible with the UK’s legally binding net-zero commitment?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said in my answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, the report itself recognises that there is ongoing demand for oil and gas, including in all scenarios for how we meet net zero. We have worked closely with the sector and across government to agree a North Sea transition deal, delivering the skills, innovation and infrastructure required to decarbonise North Sea oil and gas production.

Net-Zero Carbon Emissions

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 7th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

These are matters to be decided in the future, but we will not be able to power all transport by electric means. Certainly, some will be, but heavy articulated lorries, trains and so on mean that we will have to look at other solutions such as hydrogen.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Do the Government recognise the key role that local authorities need to play in public engagement strategies to support net zero? Can the Minister tell the House what discussions his department has had with the Local Government Association on how best to integrate the work of central and local government in this respect?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right that we need to involve local authorities and we are doing that. Indeed, local authorities are one of our key partners in many of our strategies, such as the local authority green homes grant. I am the Minister responsible for this. We are working closely with local authorities and so far they are doing an excellent job in helping us deliver it.

Biomass Electricity Subsidies: Deforestation

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Many of these studies are published and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, referred to a previous study that supports the assertion that forest is actually increasing in the area. But yes, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, is quite right—we need to act on the basis of proper, validated scientific evidence and our forthcoming biomass strategy will explore that further.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Will the Minister publish information about the inspection, monitoring and enforcement of compliance with the criteria he set out in his initial Answer? Will he put that in the public domain and explain exactly how that enforcement takes place?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Provided that it is not commercially confidential, I will certainly share that with the noble Lord.

Heat Pumps

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 22nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to work with local authorities to increase the uptake of heat pumps in domestic premises.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to the ambition set out in the Prime Minister’s 10-point plan to install 600,000 heat pumps every year until 2028 to make the UK’s homes warmer and more efficient. We already work closely with local authorities on heat-pump delivery, through schemes such as the local authority delivery scheme. The upcoming heat and buildings strategy will set out further details on how we plan to meet this ambition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that local authorities are well placed to provide the direct engagement and advice required if consumers are to be persuaded to switch to heat pumps in sufficient numbers to meet the Government’s target? Therefore, will the forthcoming heat and buildings strategy introduce properly funded local-area-wide heat and energy efficiency plans to help drive the switch?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. I have worked closely with local authorities on many of these schemes. The heat and buildings strategy is a priority, and we are aiming to publish shortly after the conclusion of the local elections in England and, of course, the elections in Scotland and Wales. The strategy will set out the important role of local authorities in supporting heat decarbonisation, including raising awareness of the support available to increase voluntary uptake of low-carbon heating systems.

Domestic Energy Efficiency: Retrofitting

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 1st March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that these targets are a challenge, but I can confirm that the target remains the same for heat pump installations. We will set out further details in the heat and buildings strategy. She will be aware of the tremendous commitments that we made in the manifesto to spend money in this area.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Does the Minister recognise that, contrary to his earlier assertion that we have made good progress on energy efficiency upgrades, at the rate of progress achieved by the green homes grant scheme it would take 480 years to retrofit all the homes in the UK that need it? Does he also recognise the huge damage that the stop-start, short-term nature of the scheme has done to industry confidence, which is vital if industry is to invest in the skills required to undertake this immense and vital task?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It would of course be best to have long-term guarantees of funding, but we continue to have these discussions internally. I agreed earlier that the green homes grant scheme has been a challenge. We are working hard to improve its performance because we must get it working and up and running to bring about confidence in the supply chain.

Gas Boilers and Heaters: Replacement Programme

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are committed to keeping the winter fuel payment to ensure that older people have the security and dignity they deserve, but we do have boiler grants, as my noble friend referred to them, through the green homes grant that are specifically designed and targeted at poorer members of society.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. We need to ensure that green hydrogen is the predominant form of hydrogen used in the gas grid and elsewhere. To that end, what consideration have the Government given to using contracts for difference to drive down costs and encourage innovation in the production of green hydrogen, as we did so successfully for offshore wind during the coalition Government?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand that the noble Lord is very keen on green hydrogen and I agree with him on these points, but we are committed to consult on the preferred hydrogen business model in quarter 2 of 2021 to finalise a decision next year. Alongside this we will bring forward further details in 2021 on the revenue mechanisms that will be available to support these proposed business models.

Green Homes Grant Scheme

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effectiveness of the Green Homes Grant scheme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

The green homes grant voucher scheme opened for applications in September 2020 and so far has received over 58,000 applications. There will be an independent evaluation of the processes and effectiveness of the voucher scheme, including a comprehensive analysis of scheme outcomes and evidence collected from scheme applicants and other stakeholders. This will begin this month and will run until 2023.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, given that the figures the Minister has given us show that the scheme has achieved less than 10% of its original target, does he recognise that no programme to upgrade the 28 million homes that require it will be successful if it is designed as a short-term stimulus measure, as this scheme was? Rather than downgrading quality requirements, will the Government therefore commit to a long-term sustained scheme over five or 10 years, which would incentivise the building industry to develop the skills base and create the jobs required to deliver such a major programme?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are not downgrading the quality requirements, but the noble Lord makes a good point. We have had a number of these schemes over the years and we will look at what we can do in the future as well.

Energy White Paper

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the ambition and vision set out in the White Paper; however, as the Minister will be aware, ambition and vision are necessary but not sufficient conditions for success. What we need now is attention to detail and practical, credible implementation plans. Sadly, the White Paper lacks them.

First, while it rightly emphasises the need to secure a fair deal for consumers, the White Paper fails to set out credible means of doing so. Can the Minister tell us why the paper envisages the cost of decarbonising our energy system continuing to be piled on to electricity bills? It should be borne fairly across the economy, because placing the transition costs on bills is both highly regressive and counterproductive if we want, as the paper rightly suggests, to shift from gas use to electricity. Will the Government correct this omission and act to reduce electricity bills by shifting this burden?

Secondly, the White Paper places an emphasis on expanding offshore wind generation. I welcome that, but there is no reference in the Statement to onshore wind generation, one of the cheapest forms of generation available, and it is referred to only fleetingly in the paper. Can the Minister explain this?

Thirdly, nuclear continues as a government obsession, even though it is now ruinously expensive compared with non-carbon sources of energy. The physical engineering requirements for nuclear have always been extremely challenging, but the financial engineering required is now impossible. And yet we continue, despite the fact that, over 60 years since the UK’s civil nuclear programme began, we still have no means of safe, long-term storage of high-level nuclear waste—waste that is deadly for longer than any human civilisation has ever survived. How can the Minister justify such an economically and morally illiterate policy?

Fourthly, the White Paper envisages 5 gigawatts of hydrogen capacity by 2030. Can the Minister clarify whether this is green or blue hydrogen CCUS and tell us who will assume long-term liability for CO₂ storage under the Government’s plans for carbon capture and storage? Does not this liability issue further underline why our focus should be on green hydrogen? Does the Minister recognise that we need to invest heavily now in contracts for difference to further drive down the rapidly reducing costs of green hydrogen in the way that was done previously on wind generation?

Fifthly, the Government have relied in their Statement on the ability of home energy efficiency upgrades to reduce domestic energy bills. The Liberal Democrats agree that energy efficiency measures are critical to tackling emissions and reducing bills, but this is another area where government action falls short of its rhetoric. The Government told us that the Green Homes Grant would deliver 600,000 home energy efficiency upgrades by the original end date in March next year. It is likely to be a fraction of that. Can the Minister tell us the actual numbers that will be delivered by that date?

My noble friend Lord Stunell, a former DCLG Minister with huge experience in this area, could have told the Government that this would be the case. In fact, he did tell the Government—repeatedly. Does the Minister not recognise that there is no hope of upgrading the 28 million homes that need it unless we have a long-term investment programme that provides industry with the confidence to invest in the recruitment and skills training required?

Finally, will he agree to consult my noble friends Lord Stunell and Lord Foster of Bath, who, as former Ministers, both have extensive experience in this area and could help the Government prevent mistakes like this reoccurring in the future?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Oates, for their comments, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, who was fairly positive in pointing out some of what he agreed with. He said that the Statement was largely positive, with some good solutions, and that he was pleased with much of it—although he did have some critical questions, which I will come to. The noble Lord, Lord Oates, was slightly less positive, and had some questions which I will attempt to address as well.

Both noble Lords raised the issue of poorer households, and they were right to do so. We have set out measures that will help households manage their energy consumption and keep bills fair and affordable, providing financial support for the most vulnerable and low-income households of at least £6.7 billion over the next six years. That includes the Green Homes Grant that the noble Lord, Lord Oates, referred to, which could see lower-income households save up to £600 a year on their energy bills, and the warm home discount scheme through to 2026 to cover 750,000 extra households. I understand the ambition that the noble Lord, Lord Oates, wishes us to meet, and I think we are making a good start, even if we do not perhaps match exactly what he would like to see.

Both noble Lords raised the subject of low-carbon electricity, which is vital. We are committed to fully decarbonised electricity generation by 2050. The current trajectory should see us largely decarbonised in the late 2030s. They both also referred to offshore wind power, and we have a manifesto commitment of 40 gigawatts of offshore wind, including 1 gigawatt of floating wind, by 2030, which will support up to 60,000 jobs.

Both noble Lords raised the important subject of hydrogen. We are aiming for 5 gigawatts of hydrogen capacity by 2030, which will unlock £4 billion in investment and support for up to 8,000 jobs. That is why we are supporting the deployment of power with CCUS by 2030, as the noble Lord, Lord Oates, referred to.

Nuclear power was raised. We believe that nuclear power continues to be an important source of clean, reliable and safe energy as part of our net zero mix. It will help result in lower costs for consumers. With the existing nuclear fleet largely retiring over the next decade, we do need further capacity. That is why the Government are entering into negotiations with EDF on the Sizewell C project in Suffolk, with a view to making an investment decision on a large-scale nuclear project before the end of this Parliament.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about the Committee on Climate Change’s advice on carbon budget 6. It is fair to say that, across the majority of our policies, our ambition to 2030 is broadly equivalent to that set out in the Committee on Climate Change’s advice. The White Paper actually goes further than the CCC in the deployment of low-carbon hydrogen production by 2030. We believe that our NDC is in line with its recommendations. Consistent with that ambitious plan, we want to create the space for companies to innovate and find new and better ways to achieve this target. As always, we remain grateful to the CCC for its advice. We will set out our approach to its reports and to achieving our emissions reductions targets in the net zero strategy next year.

The issue of SMRs was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I agree with him that this is an area that will be fruitful in the future and one that we need to move forward with and support.

COP 26: Sponsors

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are looking for both monetary and value-in-kind sponsorship. Value in kind refers to goods and services that are acquired, or highly desirable, in exchange for branding, etcetera. There is of course no question of companies taking part in negotiations.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, in his reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, the Minister said that sponsorship would be restricted to companies committed to net zero by 2050, with credible and short-term action plans to achieve it. In the light of that criteria, does he not think it time that the Government themselves had a credible short-term action plan?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, and we will be setting this out in due course.

Oil and Gas Industry

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 22nd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con) [V]]

I do not accept that we are sleepwalking into a crisis. We are devoting huge expertise and energy to planning for the transition. Renewables and nuclear have an important role to play in the transition, as do oil and gas. However, the noble Lord will have to be patient and wait for the energy White Paper, when all these matters will become clear.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, what discussions have the Government had with the oil and gas industry about utilising its expertise as we establish the UK’s green hydrogen production? What assessment have the Government made of the potential for the hydrogen industry to provide replacement high-skilled jobs for those lost in oil and gas as we decarbonise the economy?

[Lord Callanan (Con) [V]]

The noble Lord is consistent in advocating for the hydrogen sector, and it is true that the oil and gas sector has an important contribution to make to the UK’s energy transition. Its world-class supply chain has many of the essential skills and capabilities to support emerging technologies such as hydrogen and carbon capture and storage. The noble Lord will be aware that we launched the Hydrogen Advisory Council on 20 July to help inform the development of a UK hydrogen strategy, which we intend to publish early next year.

Energy: Hydrogen

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 17th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Hydrogen Advisory Council will develop a fully-funded hydrogen strategy for the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Hydrogen Advisory Council was established in July to formalise Government/industry engagement. The council and its working groups will inform the development of a UK hydrogen strategy, which will be published before COP 26 early next year. Similarly, those involved in the council and the working groups will of course play a role in its implementation. The strategy will include discussion around the costs associated with the expansion of the UK hydrogen economy and how these might be met.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Will he join me in celebrating Britain’s leading role in hydrogen technology? We are making world-first hydrogen buses in Ballymena, Falkirk and Yorkshire, and world-first hydrogen boilers in Worcester and Preston, and building the world’s first green hydrogen gigafactory in Sheffield. Does he agree that, if we are to maintain our competitive edge, our hydrogen strategy must do three things: grow supply and demand in parallel, establish regional hydrogen hubs, and start with technologies that are available now and easy to scale up, such as hydrogen buses and trains?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is entirely correct. He makes a very good point that this is an important new developing technology that we will want to support as much as we can. The UK is well placed to play a leading role in all the areas that he mentions, and when the hydrogen strategy is published it will take account of all those factors.

Renewable Energy

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 15th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend speaks with great authority on this point, but it is important to say that renewables will be key to meeting our net-zero targets. However, as I said earlier, they will need to be complemented by sources of power such as nuclear and gas, with carbon capture and storage, and additional flexibility such as batteries and interconnection. We should be prepared to support further new nuclear projects in the years ahead.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Does the Minister agree with the National Infrastructure Commission that hydrogen has a key role to play in meeting our net-zero targets, not least as a storage medium for intermittent renewables? Will the Government therefore ensure that we invest in the hydrogen economy on a similar scale to competitors such as Germany, so that we maintain our leading edge in green hydrogen technologies and do not, once again, miss the bus?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. I hope we will see more hydrogen-powered buses in the front so that we do not miss them. We have an excellent hydrogen strategy. We are investing considerable sums in developing hydrogen. We will have further announcements to make on the subject.

Committee on Climate Change: Progress Report

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 1st July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Baroness makes some very powerful points. As I said, we will respond formally to the committee in October, but the Prime Minister set out yesterday a number of measures that we will be taking. He said that we will build back better, we will build back greener and we will build back faster. The committee has made a number of recommendations in all the areas she covers, listed by specific government department, and we will respond in due course.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

Can the Minister tell the House whether the new homes that will be built under the initiatives announced by the Prime Minister yesterday will be zero-carbon homes? If not, can he explain why the Government are ignoring the clear recommendations of the climate change committee and undermining their own net-zero target?

[Lord Callanan]

We are not ignoring the recommendations of the committee. As I said, we will respond in due course, but the noble Lord makes an important point about the importance of getting carbon out of new homebuilding. We will be publishing a heat and building strategy in due course.

Emissions: Housing

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan [V]]

I am happy to agree with the noble Lord that fuel poverty is devolved. I have not personally had meetings with members of the Scottish Government or the Welsh Government, but I am always happy to do so.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

Does the Minister agree that in addition to insulating the existing housing stock, we must replace the boilers in these homes if we are to meet our net-zero target? Is he aware that as of today this means replacing over 2,000 boilers every day, 365 days a year every year until 2050—and we have not even started yet? What will the Government do about that?

[Lord Callanan [V]]

We do not necessarily need to replace every boiler. There are a number of alternative courses of action. One would be to investigate the use of hydrogen as an alternative. Already we have pilot programmes that will enable boilers to be quickly and easily upgraded to work on hydrogen.

Oil: Changes in Global Markets

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Thursday 21st May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is right to draw attention to the implications for international security from low prices and the impact that it will have on producing countries. We will continue to monitor the situation closely. We believe in a diverse energy supply in the UK, including nuclear. I cannot yet give him a specific date, but we will want to get the new nuclear power station on stream as quickly as possible.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

Can the Minister assure us that the Government will resist the siren voices of those proffering a false choice between action to tackle climate change and action to rebuild the economy? Will he confirm the Government’s commitment to net zero by 2050 and that they will urgently establish schemes to promote a job-rich green recovery?

[Lord Callanan]

I can agree with all the points that the noble Lord has made. We are committed to our 2050 target and we are committed to a green and resilient recovery.

Covid-19: Financial Markets

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 25th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I certainly did not dismiss that activity; I said that it was appalling and callous, and obviously I wish that people would not indulge in it. However, criminal law and sanctions exist for activities of this sort. We have some powers in this area, and the department’s officials are looking at this matter at the moment. If wrongdoing and illegal activity are proven, we will not hesitate to take the strongest possible action. I view this activity as appalling and I apologise to the noble Lord if I did not give that impression in my earlier answer.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, on the subject of irresponsible behaviour, perhaps I may refer to an issue that has been raised with me by medical personnel working long shifts. When they get home and try to sleep, they find that other people—perhaps because they are at home—are playing loud music, and this causes them real difficulty. Will the Minister join me in asking everybody to act responsibly and to understand that a lot of people are working shifts at the moment and need their sleep?

[Lord Callanan]

We are getting off the subject a little—I never cease to be surprised by noble Lords’ ingenuity in moving the subject on to their favourite topic of the day—but I certainly agree with the noble Lord. This is an important issue. With many people, particularly in big cities, living in flats that are currently all occupied, often with young families, it is incumbent on all of us to be good neighbours. We need to bear in mind the limitations and difficulties posed for shift workers and those with young children and so on, who in many cases are finding it difficult to cope at home at the moment.

Brexit

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Callanan

Saturday 19th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As I have said a number of times, to the boredom of noble Lords, we will of course abide by the law. The requirement—

[Lord Oates]

My Lords—

[Lord Callanan]

Can noble Lords have a little patience? I have not completed my remarks yet. We will comply with the requirements of Section 1(4) of the Benn Act to the letter. Does that answer the noble Lord’s question?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Oates]

Yes.

[Lord Callanan]

Okay. The number of Peers who have contributed to this debate, on a Saturday—