Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Balfe

Thursday 25th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe]

I will not admit to whether I am a nook or a cranny, but I thank the noble Baroness for that.

The impact assessment says that the Secretary of State is,

“to be given a power to make affirmative regulations … The regulations will include a requirement for the Secretary of State to consult trade unions and employer associations on how the fees should be calculated”.

Could the Minister give us any indication about what level of consultation of trade unions will take place?

The impact assessment then says in paragraph 287:

“They will also limit the fees to cost recovery, and provide that the membership size of trade unions … may be taken into account when the fees are calculated”.

This is obviously quite important, and I will come back to it in a minute. It then goes on to say, in paragraph 294:

“The change to the operations of the Certification Officer will not change the costs faced by compliant unions”.

I am not sure I understand that, because if the costs are going to go up, that must surely change the fees, because they will have to go up to meet them. In paragraph 295, the assessment repeats what it says in paragraph 287:

“The mechanism in which the levy will be calculated will be consulted on with trade unions and employer associations”.

Can the Minister give us some idea of how that will take place?

A little further on, paragraph 297 says that,

“secondary legislation will set out how the levy will operate in more detail … a further impact assessment will be needed for the secondary legislation”.

Could the Minister give us some idea as to where we are with that impact assessment? Is it in process and will it be produced after the legislation is adopted? What will happen?

Finally, paragraph 299 says:

“The design of the levy will consider the inclusion of specified criteria such as the number of members or amount of income an organisation has”.

I have raised this privately with the Minister, but make no secret of the fact that a number of these smaller unions are concerned at the impact this levy will have on them. Particular concern has been raised with me by a number of the smaller unions about the difference in costs that could be incurred because a large union with a political fund—for example, Unite—could end up costing the regulator a lot more to regulate than a smaller union without a political fund, such as the British Dental Association.

I am sure that the Minister cannot say anything tonight, but I would like her to agree, in working out how the levy is to be apportioned, to look, first, at giving due regard to these smaller unions—hopefully some sort of graded system will be introduced. Secondly, will consideration at least be given in the consultation to the fact that unions that have chosen to have a political fund, which is of course regulated separately, should pay an extra part of the levy so that, in other words, the levy for the supervision of the political fund will not be placed on unions that do not have a political fund?

I know that these are rather small and technical points, but they are quite vital to small trade unions. If you are looking at a fourfold increase in costs, and these costs being placed on the unions for the first time, coming on top of other costs that they have recently had placed on them, this is a serious financial burden for the smaller unions in the TUC. Many of those smaller unions, which represent important professional subgroups within the population, play an extremely important part. Some people will say that they can always be taken over by big unions but that, to my mind, is not the solution. The smaller unions of this country play an extraordinarily important part in safeguarding the pay and conditions and bringing the detailed knowledge to bear for important groups of largely, I confess, highly professional workers. They do a valuable job, and in constituting this levy and working out where it falls, I hope that the Minister can assure us that due regard will be given to the points I have raised.

[Lord Oates]

I shall speak in particular to Clause 18 stand part in this group of amendments. We have considerable concerns about the shift of responsibility for the costs of the Certification Officer from the Exchequer to the trade unions. The Certification Officer estimated the cost of the levy to be £2 million to the department. But as he said in his evidence to the Select Committee, this is very much a provisional view. He said that,

“we are warning our funders, ACAS, that we may ask for more money … Apparently, you should do only a certain amount of forward planning while the legislation is at Bill stage, as you cannot move forward too quickly with public expenditure at that point”.

I do not know whether that reflects what he was told by the department. Of course there is a cost to the unions, not just of the Certification Officer but also of the additional resources that they will have to put in to answering complaints when third-party complaints are added.

The Minister has made references to and comparisons with other regulators whose members have to pay the fees. Perhaps she could answer a few questions. First is the question I raised earlier to which I do not think I have yet had a response. Why is it right for trade unions to pay a levy to be regulated but not political parties? I am not suggesting that political parties should pay for being regulated by the Electoral Commission, but they do not. It is not right to make comparisons with the Charity Commission or, indeed, any other area because the trade unions are involved in a political arena. It will be more so if third-party complaints are allowed, as a series of partisan and politically motivated complaints will be made.

If the Government insist on pushing this levy on to trade unions, will the Minister look again at the issues relating to third-party complaints? Will she, for example, look at excluding the costs of investigating those complaints from the levy that the trade unions have to pay? Will she look at restricting the scope of third-party complaints? For example, will the Government consider excluding complainants who are members of political parties unless they are also members of the relevant union? That would help exclude some of the partisan complaints that will inevitably be generated.

Will the Government also exclude organisations which refuse to publish their funding sources? I am thinking of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, which we know is very keen on this Bill—one of the few organisations that is. As I understand it, it will be eligible to make complaints against unions relating to details of union finances while refusing to divulge where its funding comes from—as it does at present. That cannot be right. Will the Minister look into that?

Finally, I comment on the irony, given that the partisan nature of the Bill was designed in the Exchequer—in the Chancellor’s office—that it is the trade unions who are having the cost shoved from the Exchequer on to them. That is simply not right.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Balfe

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe]

May I add to the general misery of the Minister? This clause really is far too sweeping. Whatever Bill it appears in, to my mind it extends the power of Ministers against the parliamentary officials by a far wider margin than can possibly be justified. The clause contains the words:

“If a Minister of the Crown considers it appropriate to do so”.

You can consider all sorts of things “appropriate” and then produce an SI that cannot be voted down in this House. It gives far too much power.

We already gave, in the previous clause, quite extensive powers of publication—probably more than many people would say were necessary, but there are certainly wide powers. The meaning of the clause is now, “If the Minister doesn’t like the information they’ve got, they can then proceed in detail to intervene in any public body”. That is just not good and acceptable public administration. I am not speaking now about localism or anything: it is not the way you should run a public administration.

The way the clause develops gives the Minister carte blanche to do virtually anything. They can ensure that,

“in each period specified by the regulations, the percentage of the working time of any relevant union official”—

they can say, “Let’s have a list of your union officials”; which ones are relevant?—

“of an employer that is taken as paid facility time does not exceed a percentage”.

Is the decision made in Whitehall? The noble Lord has already made the point about Newcastle and the parks department. This intervention is way beyond what is appropriate, acceptable or sensible. If you try to implement the regulations, you will immediately find that there are all sorts of extenuating circumstances. Given the need for publication, public bodies will not just sit down and roll over when the Government come along and say that elected or appointed officials in the health service or in local government cannot run a single unit of staff. This really goes far further than is sensible. I seriously urge the Minister to talk to her friends about withdrawing this unnecessary and, frankly, provocative clause.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I fully agree with every word that the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, said. On reading Clause 13, I became worried about the Conservative Party—probably for the first time in my life—and about what has happened to the people in the Conservative Party, certainly since we were in coalition with them. I remember that they then believed that regulations were in general anathema and they decried state interest. Indeed, they believed in that to such an extent that at an early point in the coalition I remember that Conservative special advisers insisted that we removed a regulation relating to a requirement for children’s nightwear to be fire resistant, so appalled were they by the burden of state regulation that that put upon manufacturers. What has happened to that stance and to the belief in localism and pushing power from Whitehall down to towns, cities, schools and hospitals? With every clause in the Bill that we discuss, we see regulation upon regulation and overburdensome bureaucracy upon bureaucracy.

This clause is most extraordinary. The Government’s arrogance is breath-taking—a Government who, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, pointed out, would assume to themselves the power to determine these matters in relation to the parks department in Newcastle and to local authorities up and down the land. It is extraordinary that a Minister of the Crown can, according to new subsection (2)(b), make regulations,

“containing any provision that the Minister considers appropriate for one or both of the following purposes”.

This includes determining that,

“the working time of any relevant union official of an employer that is taken as paid facility time does not exceed a percentage that is so specified”.

It is simply extraordinary that any Government should suggest doing such a thing.

In our previous discussion on Clause 12, the Minister said that the intention of gathering all this information on facility time was not at all in order to use the reserve powers in Clause 13 to cap and restrict it. I have no reason to doubt the Minister’s sincerity but I am afraid that the political architects of this Bill in the Treasury—because that is where they are—have no such reticence. That is exactly why this clause is in the Bill, because the whole purpose of the Bill is to stamp down on trade unions and the opposition Labour Party. That is what it is all about. We know that from our time in the coalition because they tried to push this on us at least two or three times at that point.

This sort of clause should be the dream of every bureaucrat and state centralist and the nightmare of every Conservative and democrat. I hope that the Minister and the Government will think again.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Oates and Lord Balfe

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I share the view of the noble Lord and I hope that the Minister will consider extremely carefully the comments that have been made, particularly in relation to Amendment 69 but in relation to all the amendments. The real worry here is that the Government seem to regard the trade unions as a threat to be regulated, rather than as a key part of our civil society and as a key contributor to our democracy.

[Lord Balfe]

I note that the noble Lord from the Liberal Democrat Benches specifically says that he supports Amendment 69, which says that the application of funds should not be treated as spending on political objects if it is,

“encouraging the electorate not to vote for a political party or candidate”.

I seem to remember that a lot of unions encouraged people not to vote for his party or its candidates but he now appears to support trade union money being devoted to not supporting the Liberal Democrats. I agree that we should not support the Liberal Democrats but I am not sure I agree that it should be done in this way. Is the noble Lord speaking for his party when he says that political expenditure should be exempt for opposing him?

[Lord Oates]

The point which we have made and which the former Deputy Prime Minister made in his representations to the Select Committee is not that we like the way that the trade unions operated against us, often to our disadvantage, but that, first, we believe that they have an important role to play in our democracy and, secondly, if any restrictions are to be put in place, they need to be put in place on a fair basis. However, that is not what is being proposed by the Government. They are proposing to restrict the actions of the trade unions through their access to funds but not the actions of the Conservative Party. As we are all aware, it is the Conservative Party which has massive dominance in terms of finance and which poses the real threat to people’s participation in a fair and equal way. That is the problem. In its manifesto the Conservative Party said that it believes in all-party talks on funding reform but it has done nothing to bring those forward. Our concern is about a fair approach to this process.

I ask the Minister in particular what objection there can be from the Government to the involvement of trade unions in seeking the registration of electors. That is a positive role, not a partisan role, and a very important one. I think that we all in this House want to have as many people on the electoral register as possible.

Will the Minister also tell me why, if this is to be maintained with all the consequent reporting requirements on the trade unions, it is right for those requirements to be imposed in relation to activities associated with electoral registration and why that should not fall in the same way, for example, on the Conservative Party outside election time? Is the Minister proposing that such measures should be complied with by the Conservative Party? If this is, as the Government say, all about transparency for the members of voluntary organisations, in this case the trade unions, then surely what is right for trade unionists must be right for members of the Conservative Party.