Schools Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Report stage & Lords Hansard - Part 1
Tuesday 12th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I say very briefly that amid the myriad arguments on this group and, indeed, throughout the Bill, there is, if it does not sound too pompous, a philosophical difference, to put it mildly, about academies and their role. I have to say I particularly like my noble friend Lord Hunt’s Amendment 1, with its

“strategic policy on parental and community engagement”,

and I very much like the proposed new clause in Amendment 5 from my noble friends on the Front Bench, particularly proposed new subsection (2)(b)(iii) and (iv), which refers to

“the duty to cooperate with the local authority in school admissions; the duty to cooperate with the local authority in school place planning”.

That seems to be where the divide is: whether you see these academies as part of the community and to a degree answerable to the community, with community involvement, or as islands, looking after their own interests and without any requirement to be part of the whole. We will no doubt have that debate in whatever time is allowed when the Bill comes back to us from the Commons—if it gets that far.

[Lord Nash (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of a multi-academy trust, Future Academies, and a trustee of the Education Policy Institute. I am no expert on parliamentary procedure and will not comment on the discussions on it so far, but I congratulate my noble friend the Minister on listening to the concerns expressed across your Lordships’ House and by the sector, and on her approach. I will reserve judgment on any clauses that come back in whatever way until I see them, but I am delighted that my noble friend and her department will now engage widely with the sector and others. I also endorse her and my noble friend Lord Baker’s point that there are other very important parts of this Bill; for instance, on children missing from education, home education and illegal settings, which are long overdue for legislation.

Schools

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Monday 12th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

They will, of course, but we would hope that everybody involved in the schools system across the country feels an obligation to improve social mobility.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I heard the Prime Minister say—this is repeated in the Statement—that there is to be no return to the “binary system”. I put it to the Minister that there is nothing more demonstrably binary than saying to 11 year-old children and their families, “About 20% of you will go to a selective school and 80% will have failed to do so”. Is the cat not let out of the bag by the sentence in the Statement that says of selective schools, once they are established:

“We want them to raise standards in every part of the schools system … by sponsoring local non-selective schools”?

So you try to get your child into a selective school but they fail the exam; however, you then find that the selective school, out of the kindness of its heart, will give a bit of assistance to the second-division school down the road containing the 80% of pupils who failed to get in.

[Lord Nash]

Again, the noble Lord is harking back to the days when the choice was between a very high-performing grammar school and a secondary modern that might quite possibly not have entered many of its pupils for any exams at all. We have moved a long way since then. The choice might now be between a grammar school and a highly performing academy that might be more appropriate for that particular child—so I do not think the choice is binary at all.

Grammar Schools

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Thursday 8th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

We have had a very strong drive over the last six years of improving academic quality in the curriculum. I reminded the House recently that sadly, in 2010, only one in five pupils in state schools was studying a core suite of academic subjects—something that would be regarded as basic fare in most successful education jurisdictions and in any independent school. Through EBacc we doubled the number of pupils doing this. We are determined to see many more pupils doing the EBacc and doing a core suite of academic subjects. It gives disadvantaged pupils in particular the cultural capital they need, as they do not get that at home. We have been very focused on improving the academic achievement of all our pupils.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, however carefully the Statement is worded, will the Minister acknowledge that if you select young children at 11, there is no way of avoiding the fact that up to 80% of the children in the area will be labelled at that age as having failed. I know people who took the 11-plus 60 years ago who today, not far below the surface, feel bitter and hurt by what happened to them half a century previously. In one case three passed and one failed; you can imagine the effect of that in a family. How on earth can he introduce a policy of this sort that does not include those insuperable disadvantages?

[Lord Nash]

We do not wish to go back to the past. We want a modern policy for the future. We shall be consulting widely on anything we come up with and we believe many of these issues may be overcomable and may result in an improvement across the board in our school standards.

Teachers’ Strike

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I entirely recognise the figure. As I have said, many schools and organisations are facing this kind of increasing on-cost—everybody is. We live in a climate of scarce resources. However, as I have attempted to explain, there are many resources available to schools to improve their budgeting. Schools are facing pressures on their budgets that, for many of them, are far greater than they have ever faced. Most school leaders have been brought up in a climate of ever-increasing income and they have never really had to go back to a bottom-up modelling of their schools. When they do that, they find significant savings and it results in money actually being spent where they want it—rather than what is often happening in a lot of schools where sometimes the budgets have grown like Topsy. We are finding much more effective financial modelling in schools now and this is resulting in a much greater focus of resources into the classroom.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

The Minister was complaining that the teachers had a democratic mandate of just 9.4%. Will he tell the House what his democratic mandate is?

[Lord Nash]

It is a lot higher than that. A turnout of 50%—as required by our new legislation—would be needed before this could be taken seriously.

Schools: Academies

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Tuesday 3rd May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Has the Minister seen the report of the National Audit Office and its serious criticisms of the accounts of the Department for Education in respect of academies, and the words of the head of the National Audit Office, who said:

“Providing Parliament with a clear view of academy trusts’ spending is a vital part of the Department for Education’s work—yet it is failing to do this”?

Should the Minister and his department not put their own house in order before they have a blanket development of new academies?

[Lord Nash]

I have seen that report. The issue is purely technical, based on different year-ends for schools and for the department, which will not be an issue this year because of methodology. I also saw the Audit Commission’s 2014 report, which found 200 cases of fraud in local authority-maintained schools in the previous year. Given that I walked into the Department for Education in 2010 to find a department completely financially out of control after 13 years of Labour government, I do not take lessons from the party opposite.

Regional Schools Commissioners

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Thursday 14th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

As I said, regional schools commissioners and their head teacher boards are local people immersed in their local areas. They are professionals who bring consistent high expectation and responsiveness to their role. They have all been directly involved in helping turn around failing schools and have no truck with an excuses culture. So I feel that they are the right people. As we all know, sometimes petty local adult politics gets in the way of the right decision for children.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, under the system that most of us grew up with and have got accustomed to, parents who are dissatisfied with the way in which their local school was operating had a number of local bodies to which they could go. The most obvious one, ultimately, would have been the local authority: the local councillor, or maybe even the person who chairs the education committee. Is the Minister really saying that the capacity of parents now to see as their ultimate, democratically accountable person the Secretary of State is in anything other than words a meaningful point of access for parents seeking to find out what is going wrong with their school?

[Lord Nash]

As I have already said, we think that parents should be more involved in their children’s education. It is the case that many academy trusts have found when they have taken the school into their group that parent engagement has been very lacking, and they have, in particular, brought attendance at parents’ evenings up dramatically. As I have said, we will put in place new arrangements whereby all multi-academy trusts and single trusts must engage on a meaningful and consistent basis with parents. Also, we will put in place a process whereby parents can bring complaints and concerns directly to the regional schools commissioners.

Education: English Baccalaureate

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Monday 14th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I know that we have a number of UTCs specialising in that, including one where I know that the Royal Navy is actively engaged.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Having failed to answer my noble friend Lord Watson in his first attempt, could the Minister now try again?

[Lord Nash]

I do not really think that time would allow me to do so.

Childcare: Early-years Funding

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Wednesday 3rd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

We are particularly focused on children from the most disadvantaged families—that is why we introduced the funding for two year-olds from disadvantaged families. This is very much part of the drive behind the policy.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, in responding to my noble friend’s question about getting some clarity in his wording, the Minister gave another definition which was even less clear than the first. As he clearly cannot answer the question at the moment, can he help the House by giving us a written reply with a clearer definition of what is meant by “happiness”, “joy”, “fairness”, or whatever other phrase he wishes?

[Lord Nash]

Much as I would be delighted to enter into a lengthy correspondence with the noble Lord on those rather esoteric matters, I shall not do so. It is clear that we are at the start of a negotiation between the Government and funders and we need to make sure that the funders are able to provide a good service without making too much profit. I am sure the party opposite will be delighted to hear that.

National Curriculum: Animal Welfare

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

As I think the noble Baroness has heard me say on a number of occasions, I regard teaching as the most noble of professions. It is certainly the most important profession at this time as far as the future of this country is concerned. But I think we just have to get real. Under the previous Government, the number of pupils getting a core suite of academic subjects in education slumped. We are recovering from that position, but until we start loading up the curriculum with extras on a compulsory basis we have to recover educationally to provide our pupils, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds, with that core cultural literacy that they need.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister gave a rather strange reply to an earlier question on the Hunting Act: that, somehow or other, properly educated pupils will be able to make up their own minds on the subject. It is not a question of making up one’s own mind on the subject. When a law of the land has been passed by both Houses of Parliament, the assumption is that people will obey it. I hope that he thoroughly agrees with that in relation to the Hunting Act.

[Lord Nash]

I entirely agree that all citizens should obey the law.

Education: Citizenship

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I agree with my noble friend’s sentiment. This Government have funded five organisations to test new approaches to improve registration levels and democratic engagement, including funding UK Youth in this regard.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, on democratic participation, do we not in this House have a big advantage over young people coming on to the register? During our lifetimes, we have been able to participate in general elections on average once every three years and 10 months, whereas the upcoming generation, thanks to legislation by this Government, will be able to take part in a general election only once every five years. A simple decision that could be made to increase the possibility of democratic participation by young people would be to scrap these wretched five year fixed-term Parliaments.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

Schools: Local Oversight

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Monday 28th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

These are arrangements which are sorted out under a scheme of delegation between the trustees and the local governing board. They can delegate quite a few of the responsibilities, or limit them, but all academy trusts have to make this very clear in their schemes.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Whatever the arguments—and they are substantial—between the two sides of the House on the merits of the Government’s policy of allowing so great a range of different administrations for secondary schools, what is unarguable, as I am sure the Minister will agree, is that the Government’s programme has resulted in a huge increase in the Secretary of State’s personal responsibility—whoever he or she might be—for the ultimate management of so many secondary schools. Given that no individual could possibly do this on their own, can he tell us what structures are in place within the Department for Education, how many people are employed within those structures, and how much it costs? We might then get some sort of measure of how this awesome responsibility is being undertaken and who on earth is undertaking it.

[Lord Nash]

The Secretary of State, to put it simply, has always been responsible for schools in this country. I cannot put it better than this:

“If a school is not delivering sound education for its pupils, and a different way of running the school would yield a different and better result, it is our duty to institute the change”.

I could not have put it as well—and not surprisingly, as that was a former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, speaking last week. We believe that the regional schools commissioners are the right structure. As for cost, this Government inherited a department from the previous Government that had no concept of value for money. We have halved the cost of running it in real terms. I will write to the noble Lord if he would like the figures. However, the actual cost of running the regional schools commissioners will be something like £5 million, compared with the huge expense of the bureaucratic system that the party opposite proposed to put in place.

Schools: Independent Schools

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

The assisted places scheme provided valuable support for pupils, who benefited from a place at an independent school, which their parents might not otherwise have been able to afford. The scheme was abolished by the Labour Party in 1998 so that that money could be spent in the state sector. We agree with that sentiment. Our policy is that resources should be targeted at improving state funding for all pupils rather than supporting a minority.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

It is worth reminding ourselves that the abolition of the assisted places scheme so that its money could be used in providing free nursery school education was one of five pledges in the 1997 manifesto of the Labour Party—a small number of pledges—and that partly as a result of those pledges, the Labour Party won the general election with a majority of nearly 200.

[Lord Nash]

I am sure that the noble Lord’s facts are entirely accurate.

Education: PISA Results

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education is deeply concerned about the situation in Wales, which—quite deliberately, it seems—lacks many of the systems of accountability and rigour that we are putting in place here. My noble friend puts it extremely well: if anyone wants a case study of how not to do it, Wales seems to be it. We would be happy to have conversations with them if they were prepared to engage in conversations.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

When he read out the Statement, the Minister began by paying tribute to the work and dedication of teachers, which is the right thing to do. I hope that it was meant sincerely, not by him but by the Secretary of State who wrote it. However, I have to say to him, although I am sure that he will know this if he visits schools, as I know he does, that that respect and affection is not reciprocated by teachers up and down the country. He will know that dedicated and committed teachers see the Secretary of State as being arrogant and failing to value the commitment and quality of teachers, their advice and their experience, which in my judgment is a very bad position for any Secretary of State to take. They do not feel valued and understood by him, and they do not feel, when they express strongly held opinions, based on experience, about how and what to teach and how to manage schools, that they are respected by this Government.

I will not say that I modestly suggest this because it is not a modest suggestion, but I simply suggest as a matter of common sense that if the Secretary of State wants to make changes in our education system, then a fundamental principle of management on his part should be to get on his side the people who have to implement those changes and improvements.

Schools: Academies

Debate between Lord Nash and Lord Grocott

Thursday 14th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

All good and outstanding schools that have chosen to convert to academies are expected to support other schools. More and more academies are taking this further and sponsoring other academies. Eighty-nine converter academies are now sponsoring other schools and providing support by sharing innovative ways of thinking and clear examples of what works, and we are working hard to encourage more to do so.

[Lord Grocott]

Will the Minister comment on reports that heads are being offered around £65,000 as an inducement to convert their schools into academies? If that is true, what is the estimated cost to public funds if the number of academies turns out to be as he anticipates: that is, the number of schools multiplied by £65,000? At a time when we are constantly being told that austerity is the order of the day, can he confirm that it is his opinion, as it is mine, that this is a complete waste of money?

[Lord Nash]

We are offering grants—all this is available on our website—to help sponsors to turn round failing and underperforming schools. In its November 2012 report, the National Audit Office rightly acknowledged the extraordinary success of the academy programme. We make no apology for spending money on a programme that is proven to drive up standards and make long-term improvements. We want as many schools as possible to take advantage of the significant benefits of academy status.