Children and Families Bill Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department for Education
Lord Nash
Main Page: Lord Nash (Conservative - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Nash's debates with the Department for Education
Children and Families Bill
Lord Nash Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Non-Afl)
My Lords, at this time of night I shall be brief and not repeat anything that has already been said. However, I wish to make effusive remarks about the Minister’s response to the case made by the Health Conditions in Schools Alliance and for bringing forward a government amendment to the Bill, for which we are grateful. I thank the Minister for ensuring that the indicative draft of the guidance was available before we discussed this element of the Bill.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for proposing this very important amendment. He sought a response from the Minister on what happens if a school—schools now have a very clear responsibility to look after these children—fails to get an adequate input from the local health system in terms of support and making plans for individual children. From time to time staff at schools across the country say that they would like to provide a better response in this regard but are unable to do so because they do not get adequate training and support from the local health system. Therefore, this amendment is important as it would reinforce the existing duties under the Children Act—which, alas, are currently ignored—and make sure that a school is not put in the impossible position of having a statutory duty but no means of carrying it out if it is not given the necessary support.
School nurses are important but so are specialist nurses for various conditions because in many cases their specialist knowledge will be required to establish an adequate plan for each child. Therefore, this issue cannot be left simply to school nurses, quite apart from the workload issue that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raised.
I know that this issue is of great concern to the trade unions. It was, indeed, their only stumbling block. I held the mistaken belief that the trade unions were not willing to take up this challenge on an ideological basis. However, their concerns were practical ones. They were very willing to see teachers give this support to children provided they were properly supported and trained to do so. Therefore, the question is: what does a school do if the NHS does not step up to the plate in providing training and support for it?
The indicative guidance rightly talks about the role of Ofsted in ensuring that schools meet this new duty. However, there needs to be further discussion between the department and Ofsted about the latter’s role and what it will be able to do in relation to this issue. The guidance says that inspectors are already briefed to consider the needs of pupils with chronic or long-term medical conditions and to report on how well their needs are being met. However, that was not quite the impression I got when I met the Chief Inspector of Schools a few weeks ago, so clarity is needed about what requirements will be laid on Ofsted, not perhaps in terms of this duty being fully inspected but at least the forthcoming guidance to inspectors should brief them on it. Perhaps at some stage an ad hoc report could be produced on how well the guidance is being implemented. I press the Minister to tell us what a school will do if it hits a brick wall with the NHS.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their comments on Amendment 57C, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and to all those noble Lords who have brought these matters to our attention. We are in consultation on the guidance and we welcome all noble Lords’ comments on it and on all other matters. I hope that I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and other noble Lords that further primary legislation is not necessary.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I did not want our relative silence on these Benches to be interpreted as meaning that we were not in full support of the noble Baroness’s amendment. She will know that we have consistently worked with and supported her on these issues. Because of the lateness of the hour, I do not intend reading the speech that I had prepared, but will simply say that we think that having a national anti-bullying strategy combined with the code of practice, in the way that is described in this amendment, is a sensible staged approach to dealing with this very sensitive and growing issue. We accept that head teachers and teachers must have some discretion, as I think the Minister said in Committee, but they also need help and support. This package is the right combination for that and I hope that the noble Lord is able to persuade us that the Government are taking this seriously going forward.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate and assure them that we take this matter very seriously. I thank in particular my noble friend Lady Brinton for bringing her experience and expertise to bear on these issues. I also thank my noble friend for meeting me recently and for helping me to better understand her very legitimate concerns about the impact bullying can have on the lives of children and young people. I know that she is aware that we share those concerns.
Although I am not persuaded that legislation is the right approach, those discussions have proved extremely useful in identifying gaps in our advice to schools and in helping us to understand how we can do more to address these important issues. As a direct result of the debates in this House and discussions outside it—with both my noble friend and other experts, notably the Anti-Bullying Alliance, which has always provided us with helpful and constructive input in the development of our approaches—we are committed to enhancing our advice to schools. I will say a bit more about precisely what we are doing in a moment.
The Government take a zero-tolerance approach to bullying and our advice to schools on this is clear and firm. I acknowledge that there is a place for legislation. All schools are required to have a behaviour policy which contains measures to tackle bullying, and we think that this approach is the right one. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, talked about these policies being on shelves but I do not think that, in the modern world, with the kind of pupils and inner-city issues that we have, any school can afford to have any of these policies on shelves. They are right at the forefront of practice and I know that bullying is something that all good schools take very seriously indeed. However, the national strategy that the amendment proposes could focus schools’ attention on complying with it as a tick-box exercise at the expense of allowing teachers to exercise their professional judgment, creativity and energy to tackle bullying as it presents itself in their particular school.
We had a question earlier today about Islamophobic bullying. Shortly after 9/11, outside Pimlico Academy in Lupus Street, which my wife and I sponsor, there was a fight between 200 non-Muslim and 200 Muslim pupils who just went at each other. It was basically a riot. There were police on horseback and ambulances. It was quite dreadful. Such issues are not easily sorted out by dusting bits of paper off shelves. I am not saying that having a strategy is not important, but that school has worked hard over a long period and I am pleased to say that racism there is a thing of the past. This is essential to all good schools.
However, it is important that schools are held to account for their effectiveness in tackling behaviour and bullying. That is why we reduced the reporting requirements for school inspections in 2011 to focus on the core business of a school: four core areas, of which one is behaviour and safety, instead of the previous 27. In setting out how inspectors should judge this, Ofsted’s inspection handbook includes explicit reference to considering types, rates and patterns of bullying. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, also referred earlier to friendship groups. School inspectors must consider how schools prevent and tackle bullying, and where necessary prompt schools to improve. This approach encourages schools really to focus on behaviour and bullying.
I know that concerns were raised in Committee that inspectors do not always see schools as they really are. Since the first Ofsted inspections in 1992, there has been a steady journey towards unannounced visits. Initially schools received more than a year’s notice of inspectors turning up. Over time, this shifted to eight weeks, and from 2005 to around two days. Under this Government, this has been reduced to almost no notice, with inspectors calling head teachers the afternoon before an inspection takes place. In December, launching his annual report, the chief inspector announced that where there were concerns about pupils’ behaviour, including bullying, schools could be subject to visits with no notice at all. I believe that these measures ensure that inspectors see schools as they really are; we no longer hear stories of pupils being sent to the ice rink for the day or asked to stay at home.
Our approach and strategy provide the right balance between requirements in law, flexibility for schools and strict accountability. My noble friend also proposed that a comprehensive definition of bullying be developed. We agree that there is a need to provide clarity for schools, but this is best done through advice rather than legislation. I know that noble Lords expressed concerns in Committee that the advice that we currently outline to schools does not include a reference to the imbalance of power present in many instances of bullying. I confirm that we are working closely with the anti-bullying organisations, and can reassure my noble friend and other noble Lords that we will incorporate an appropriate reference to the imbalance of power in our advice to schools.
In the light of previous debates in this House and subsequent discussions, we have identified how our advice could be further enhanced to address the concerns raised. We are creating an online fact sheet to inform schools about how they can support bullied children. This will include all the relevant information about and links to what steps can be taken to support children who are severely affected by bullying. It will incorporate information about in-school provision, SEN support and alternative provision for children severely affected by bullying. I hope that practical steps such as this will be welcomed.
I hope that noble Lords will recognise that the Government have done a great deal to address the issues around bullying, but we can go further—by acknowledging more explicitly, for example, that severe bullying can have a clear impact on a child or young person’s mental health. Therefore, I am happy to confirm to my noble friend that we will make it clearer in Special Education Needs: Code of Practice, which is a critical document for schools and other bodies, that bullying is one thing that might lead to a child or young person having special educational needs and that, where it does so, schools must take appropriate action. This can involve support from external agencies, if needed, whether or not a child has an education, health and care plan. In addition, we will make appropriate cross-references between the bullying guidance and the SEN code of practice to ensure that schools are clear about this point.
“Application of suspension etc powers to establishments and agencies in England
(1) In section 14A of the Care Standards Act 2000 (power of Welsh Ministers to suspend registration of person in respect of establishment or agency), in subsection (1)—
(a) for “Welsh Ministers” substitute “registration authority”, and(b) omit “for which the Welsh Ministers are the registration authority”.(2) In subsection (2) of that section, for “Welsh Ministers give” substitute “registration authority gives”.
(3) In section 15(4A) of that Act (duty of Welsh Ministers to give notice of decision to grant application for cancellation or variation of suspension)—
(a) for “Welsh Ministers decide” substitute “registration authority decides”,(b) for “they” substitute “it”, and(c) for “their” substitute “its”.(4) In section 20B of that Act (urgent procedure for suspension or variation etc: Wales), in the heading omit “: Wales”.
(5) In subsection (1) of that section—
(a) in paragraph (a) omit “for which the Welsh Ministers are the registration authority”, and(b) in paragraph (b)—(i) for “Welsh Ministers have” substitute “registration authority has”, and(ii) for “they act” substitute “it acts”.(6) In subsection (2) of that section, for “Welsh Ministers” in both places substitute “registration authority”.
(7) In subsection (4)(b) of that section, for “Welsh Ministers’” substitute “registration authority’s”.”
Lord Nash
My Lords, Amendments 57G and 64ZA complement those which I introduced in Committee to pave the way for the introduction of a new framework for the regulation and inspection of children’s homes. We have worked very closely with Ofsted on how the inspection of children’s homes should be improved.
Amendment 57G is intended to equip Oftsed with the powers required to make a prompt and timely intervention when it identifies serious concerns about the care of children. The amendment would extend provisions in the Care Standards Act that already operate in Wales to England to allow Ofsted to suspend a person’s registration in relation to a setting caring for children that is regulated under Part 2 of the Care Standards Act. This means a criminal offence would be committed if a registered person continued to operate the setting while their registration was suspended.
While this power could apply to any setting regulated by Ofsted under Part 2 of the Care Standards Act, for example a fostering service, we expect that it would be used almost always in relation to children’s homes, where Ofsted assesses that there is a need for urgent action to suspend a person’s registration while concerns about a home’s care are investigated.
At present, in England, if there is a serious incident in a home, Ofsted has the power only to cancel a person’s registration. This amendment would enable Ofsted to take action more quickly in cases where this is needed. For example, where there are allegations of abuse in a home, it might be appropriate to suspend a registration while these are being investigated.
Both we and Ofsted recognise that a power to suspend a person’s registration is a draconian one. We expect that moves to suspend registration would happen only on rare occasions where there were very serious concerns. Ofsted would take this action only if, following consideration of other enforcement options, it was judged to be necessary given the specific circumstances of the case.
Ofsted is committed to exercising this power in a fair and proportionate way. For example, we would expect inspectors, as far as is reasonably practicable, to contact a provider shortly before delivering a suspension notice. This contact would make it clear that the suspension would not formally start until the notice had been properly and formally served.
Ofsted already has a power to suspend early years services under the Childcare Act 2006. There is a protocol between Ofsted and the Care Standards Tribunal to expedite appeals against suspension notices by early years providers to ensure early judicial scrutiny of inspectors’ actions in these urgent and extreme situations. Ofsted expects to enter into a similar protocol with the tribunal concerning the new urgent suspension power that this amendment would introduce. Discussions about this are planned between Ofsted and the tribunal in the near future.
I hope that noble Lords will support this important amendment to introduce a new safeguard for vulnerable children so that Ofsted inspectors can take timely and rigorous enforcement action in those rare instances where it is required. I beg to move.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I support Amendment 59A and I also strongly support Amendments 59B and 59F. I address this from the viewpoint of the children themselves. Children and young people care about the independence of the Children’s Commissioner and support the proposal to prevent any interference by government as set out in Amendment 59A.
In a briefing put together by young people in partnership with Save the Children, they say quite rightly that the commissioner is for them and that it is important that the Government listen to their views on the issue of independence. The young people understand the importance of the commissioner being free to do his job properly. In particular, they are worried about future Governments interfering in the commissioner’s work. Mohamed, aged 16, said:
“If the Commissioner’s full independence is not clearly set in stone then a new Government would be able to change its mind … If it’s not [written down in law] it could change in a few years-time. Even if the Children’s Commissioner has the freedom now to do what they think is right, there’s no guarantee it wouldn’t change”.
So young people are concerned that without this amendment, children may think that the commissioner is not a proper champion of their views and rights, and they may not put their trust in the commissioner.
Young people say that without a fully independent champion, children could grow up to feel disengaged from their community and local and national politics. Najib, aged 12, said:
“If the children’s commissioner isn’t completely independent then young people will feel like they don’t have a voice. When they grow up they may not have the confidence to speak out and join in as they’ve felt that no one has listened to them when they were growing up”.
I hope very much that the Minister will consider young people’s views on this issue and I very much support the proposal brought forward on this by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey.
Lord Nash
I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey, Lady Lister and Lady Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for their contributions. I will speak to the government amendments in more detail shortly, but I would first like to respond to Amendment 59A tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and Amendments 59B and 59F tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for focusing our attention on the key issue of the independence of the Children’s Commissioner. As I stressed during the debate in Committee, in order for the Children’s Commissioner to have credibility with children and children’s organisations, and to meet international standards, we fully recognise that the commissioner needs to be—and be seen to be—acting independently from government. That is why we are removing a number of provisions in the existing legislation that call into question the commissioner’s independence, as recommended by John Dunford following his review. As a result, there is nothing in the legislation that allows the Government to determine what the commissioner’s priorities are, what activities he or she will undertake, or what timescales he or she will work to—these are all matters for the commissioner.
During the debates in Committee, both here and in the other place, the Minister for Children and Families and I provided reassurances on the process for appointing the commissioner, and on providing the commissioner with a sufficient budget. I am happy to repeat them again today. The Government fully recognise the need for the commissioner to be free from any political interference in carrying out his or her functions, and the arrangements in place to appoint the commissioner and provide him or her with a sufficient budget will ensure that this is the case.
I would like to reassure noble Lords that the commissioner’s appointment will be governed by the code of practice published by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, which ensures that such appointments are made on the basis of merit, following a fair and open recruitment process. This ensures that only those candidates judged by the OCPA recruitment panel to be “appointable” can be put forward for Ministers’ consideration. Further, we have given commitments that Parliament will be provided with an opportunity to comment on the job description and person specification before the post is advertised, and an opportunity to hold a pre-appointment hearing before the appointment is confirmed.
On the framework agreement, as requested by noble Lords in Committee, I have made available a draft of the revised framework agreement that sets out the relationship between the commissioner and the Department for Education. As noble Lords will note, the revised framework agreement includes clear statements about the commissioner’s independence from government.
Noble Lords will also note that, as requested by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the draft framework agreement includes changes that mirror those made to the framework agreement between the Equality and Human Rights Commission and its sponsor department—changes that seek to ensure that the impact of public sector efficiency controls do not unreasonably constrain the commissioner’s independence.
I now turn to Amendment 59B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, which seeks to add, “initiating and intervening in legal proceedings”, to the non-exhaustive list of activities that the commissioner may undertake in the exercise of his or her primary function, as set out in proposed new Section 2(3) of the Children Act 2004, inserted by Clause 86. During the debates in Committee, I said that initiating or intervening in legal proceedings was, in the Government’s view, implicit within the commissioner’s primary function. The commissioner has intervened in legal proceedings on a number of occasions under the current legislation, and there is nothing in this Bill that changes that position.
As now, if the Office of the Children’s Commissioner wanted to bring legal proceedings, it would fall to the judge in the individual case to determine whether the commissioner had “sufficient interest” in the matter. However, the fact that the Children’s Commissioner will have a statutory role to promote and protect children’s rights, suggests that the commissioner would have a sufficient interest in any matter before the courts where children’s rights were involved. The question is not, therefore, whether it is possible for the commissioner to initiate or intervene in legal proceedings, but whether it is desirable to emphasise this aspect of the commissioner’s remit explicitly on the face of the Bill.
There are a number of reasons why I do not wish to do that. First, we have avoided adding to the list, in proposed new Section 2(3), of activities that are already implicit within the commissioner’s primary function. Secondly, while I agree that the commissioner should, in certain circumstances, be able to bring matters before the courts, I share John Dunford’s view that a decision by the Children’s Commissioner to initiate legal proceedings should not be taken lightly. We would expect any commissioner to use this power sparingly, given the range of functions and issues in which the commissioner is likely to take an interest, and in the light of his or her responsibility to make effective use of public funding.
Lord Ramsbotham
I am sorry to delay proceedings, but can the Minister, in the light of what he has just said, assure me that an incoming commissioner will at least be made aware of that provision, and that the assurance that he has just given to the House will be repeated in that briefing?
Lord Nash
I am delighted to give that assurance to the noble Lord. Thirdly, including an explicit reference to initiating and intervening in legal proceedings would raise expectations that the commissioner will take up legal challenges on behalf of any individual or group who brings a matter to the commissioner’s attention. The Office of the Children’s Commissioner is clearly not resourced to operate in that way, and it could end up wasting time defending decisions not to take up particular cases.
I turn now to Amendment 59F, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, which would add categories of children—–namely, children in custody, children who have been trafficked and unaccompanied migrant children—to the definition at new Section 8A, which is inserted by Clause 93. In the Government’s view, it is not possible to define precisely in legislation every interaction that the commissioner and his or her staff might have with children; nor would we want to. What the legislation seeks to do, therefore, is to put down some clear markers that are designed to achieve particular objectives.
First, as noble Lords will be aware, there is a provision that prevents the commissioner investigating individual cases. This is specifically to avoid the commissioner getting swamped with individual casework at the expense of his or her strategic role. John Dunford’s report was clear that where commissioners had taken on a full ombudsman’s role, it had reduced their impact.
Secondly, as recommended by John Dunford, we have included provisions in the legislation that ensure, as far as possible, that the support provided to children within the Children’s Rights Director’s remit can and will continue under the new arrangements. Beyond that, we do not wish to try to enshrine in legislation what level of support the commissioner should provide to individual children who may contact the commissioner or his or her staff. It is inevitable, as now, that children will contact the commissioner through, for example, the OCC’s website. Where they do, we of course expect the commissioner to offer appropriate help.
In many cases, that help would involve signposting the child to information or support. In others, it would involve helping the child to access an existing complaints or advocacy service, while in other cases it may involve the commissioner providing support that is similar to the “advice and assistance” function that the CRD currently provides. Ultimately, if the commissioner felt that the child’s case highlighted a matter of wider strategic importance, he or she could conduct an investigation into that issue. Our view, therefore, is that it should be for the commissioner to determine what level of support to provide to children when they approach him or her. That is why we do not wish to describe how the commissioner should interact with children in legislation, beyond the two exceptions mentioned earlier.
I do not therefore believe that it is necessary to extend the definition at Section 8A to include the groups of children that the noble Lord proposes. The commissioner will have wide-ranging functions and powers to give him or her the flexibility to support children as he or she deems appropriate in the exercise of the primary function of promoting and protecting children’s rights. Many of those children will, in fact, already be covered by Section 8A because they are living away from home and/or are in receipt of local authority services. For example, children on remand to youth detention accommodation are treated as looked-after children.
For children in custody, there are already adequate complaints, grievance and disciplinary systems in place, which the noble Lord will be familiar with, in young offender institutions, secure training centres and secure children’s homes to enable young people to resolve issues relating to their detention. Advocacy services are also provided in YOIs, STCs and SCHs to assist young people in navigating the complaints, grievance or disciplinary systems. Advocacy is provided by Barnardo’s in young offender institutions and secure training centres, with local arrangements in place in secure children’s homes. If a young person is not satisfied with the outcome of a complaint, they are able to refer the issue to the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman, the statutory monitor or the local authority.
Not extending the advice and assistance role to children in custody does not mean that the commissioner cannot investigate matters within the juvenile secure estate as part of a wider investigation. In fact, the commissioner has already done so—for example, with the commissioner’s inquiry into the support available in the youth justice system for young people with mental health issues. So far as the Children’s Commissioner looking at new SEN support in custody is concerned, the key plank of these reforms is to make it clear that the Secretary of State cannot direct the Children’s Commissioner. However, if he or she wishes to consider the SEN reforms, he or she is of course able to do so.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very thorough response. I am particularly pleased to hear that he says that there will be “particular regard” to the UNCRC and that there will be consultation with children enshrined in the law.
On the query about “affirmation on independence” and the lack of “prohibition”, maybe we should look at the wording. Maybe it is just a matter of words, but it is not how I read it in the first place. I accept that the Children’s Commissioner cannot realistically cope with individual cases. That would be far too big a burden and would, as the Minister said, “hamper” the effectiveness of the office. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will correct me if I am wrong, but he and I are saying that we see the Children’s Commissioner as a guardian and monitor of children’s rights as well as a champion. We shall see about the issue of the appointment. I hope that the Minister will take note of our concerns on this.
I forgot to ask the Minister about the timetable for this appointment; I do not know if he can reply now or write to me and other noble Lords.
“( ) regulations under section (Application of Part to detained persons)(3),”
“(1A) Section (Contact between prescribed persons and adopted person’s relatives)—
(a) so far as it relates to England, comes into force on such day as the Secretary of State appoints by order, and(b) so far as it relates to Wales, comes into force on such day as the Welsh Ministers appoint by order.”
“(3A) Section (Regulation of retail packaging etc of tobacco products) extends to the whole of the United Kingdom.”