Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Lord Murray of Blidworth and Lord Cashman

Report stage
Monday 4th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The characterisation of the mentality in Rwanda that the noble Lord asserts does not reflect that of the community representatives whom the JCHR met last week. It is clear from the evidence that they gave us that Rwanda is very much a leading light in east Africa, being an open and tolerant home for LGBT+ people. Indeed, it is very much felt in the region that gay people are at home there. Therefore, I do not accept the characterisation that the noble Lord sets out. I encourage him to think again about the welcoming nature of society in Kigali, particularly given what is going on in neighbouring east African states—for example, Uganda and the DRC.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that considered intervention. I can speak only according to my direct experience in Rwanda, from 2008. As I said earlier, in discussion on another group, I worked in Rwanda for several months as the chief election observer for the 2008 elections. At that time, I had to intercede on behalf of activists who were directly experiencing discrimination. I have not given up on that. I recognise what is going on in Uganda and other countries, but comparisons are not always helpful—indeed, they are somewhat odious when it comes to the lived experience of people with whom I am in direct contact. This is not academic; I am talking about what is reported to me, as the noble Lord is referring to what was reported to him and other parliamentarians on a parliamentary visit.

Following on from my previous references to divisionism and the consequences caused by one group being pitted against another, I therefore assert that LGBT people could not live openly. To do so would be a challenge to others that would not be accepted. It would and could be portrayed as divisionism.

This is in direct contrast to the protections that arise from the judgment referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, in HJ (Iran) from the Supreme Court of 2010. It affects characteristics that come from belonging to a particular social group. Again, I refer to my intervention in Committee, where I represented some of the concerns of LGBT activists. I will not repeat them, but if Members of your Lordships’ House request me to do so, I would be more than happy to oblige.

At the end of last week, I again made contact with LGBT activists, and asked again what the situation was like for LGBT asylum seekers in Rwanda. The reply was succinct and stark, written in four separate messages so that it could not be connected or traced:

“Rwanda is not a safe place for LGBTQ asylum seekers at all.


Though there are no laws

Community is facing

So much violence and discrimination”.

They are not my words, but the words of people living in that region. That is the reality of life for the LGBTQ people that we send to Rwanda, and sadly not the representations made to visiting parliamentarians.

Asylum Seekers: Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity

Debate between Lord Murray of Blidworth and Lord Cashman

Wednesday 25th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to maintain, and (2) to enhance, the protection of asylum seekers who would risk ill-treatment if returned to a country of origin because of their sexual orientation or gender identity.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Migration and Borders (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

The Government are committed to delivering an asylum system that continues to protect individuals from persecution, including that based on sexual orientation and gender identity. At the same time, we remain determined to tackle illegal migration so that we deter individuals from risking their lives making dangerous channel crossings.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I ask this Question in relation to assurances given during the passage of the Illegal Migration Bill through your Lordships’ House, in particular on LGBT+ asylum seekers. I remain deeply concerned given the recent statements made by the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, in the United Kingdom and the United States and the misrepresentation—indeed, the belittling —of the discrimination experienced by women and LGBT+ people, which, I believe, undermine the assurances given. Therefore, having given the Minister sight of my Question because I believe that we need to detoxify this issue, I ask the Government for an unequivocal reassurance that they will abide by the commitments made to this House and will maintain the principle of assessing the risk of persecution faced by women and LGBT+ people, which is established in law and which I believe forms the basis of a humane, comprehensive asylum policy.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me sight of his Question in advance. I can assure noble Lords that the cornerstone of the asylum consideration process remains the requirement to establish a well-founded fear of persecution for a reason set out in Article 1A(2) of the 1951 refugee convention and enshrined in last year’s Nationality and Borders Act. There has been no downgrading of the threshold. We do not return asylum seekers to their home countries if their sexuality or gender would place them at risk of future serious harm or persecution. This is of course the principle derived from the case of HJ (Iran), which we discussed during the passage of the Illegal Migration Bill. Nor would we relocate someone to a safe third country if there was a real risk of their suffering serious and irreversible harm if they were removed from the United Kingdom.

Creative and Cultural Industries: Impact of Visa and Immigration Policies

Debate between Lord Murray of Blidworth and Lord Cashman

Tuesday 25th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid, timid as I am to disagree with my noble friend, that is just wrong. There are no issues here. In 2022, we issued 6,498 creative worker visas, of which 180 were issued to EEA nationals. Over the last decade, the number of creative visas issued has remained consistently high compared to other temporary work routes, such as the charity and religious worker visa routes. While the volumes fell during the pandemic, as one might expect, they have returned to high volumes. I suggest that the high volumes and low barriers to entry are a symbol of the excellence of our own success in the areas of work to which these visas relate.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, I am sorry not to give way to the noble Lord.

The Minister’s assurances roll over the Dispatch Box like treacle. Is he not aware that organisations as diverse as BECTU, the technicians’ trade union, and Barbican, the arts centre, are making exactly the same complaints as his noble friend just made? Is not the root cause of this that Brexit, far from being oven-ready, is half-baked and has left our creative industries in particular bereft of support?