Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Baroness Randerson

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the points made by my noble friends Lord Hain and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. I, too, spoke during the passage of the then Trade Union Bill. I hope the Minister will reply to the debate with greater knowledge of the devolution settlement than his colleague did. Inevitably, his ministerial colleague looked at it from the point of view of employment throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. This is not about that, however: my noble friend made it absolutely clear that employment law is reserved. This is about public services in Wales and how industrial relations operate within them.

Since these public services are wholly and exclusively devolved, so should be the modest industrial relations consequences that flow from that. We are talking not about strikes, but about the possibility of public bodies allowing their workers to have their wages docked for trade union subscriptions and about allowing public workers to have full-time officials paid for in those organisations. These are not revolutionary or tremendously difficult issues; they are issues that affect public services. The constitutional point that the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made is crucial to this, because it strikes at the heart of the devolution settlement in Wales. That is why the Welsh Assembly is taking it so seriously that it has promised it will legislate to change the trade union law in so far as it affects public services in Wales. That could be avoided at a stroke were the Government to agree to my noble friend’s amendment. They probably will not, but they will cause a huge amount of trouble to build up in the months and years ahead.

In the agricultural workers’ case, the Supreme Court made it clear that the service was devolved to Wales and that the industrial relations aspect of it was therefore devolved as well. Nothing could be clearer than that, so why are we entering a war with the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly on this issue? It is a pointless war which will not be won. I hope the Minister will give some hope to us. If he does not, I am sure the issue will be raised again on Report. If the amendment is unsuccessful then, the Welsh Assembly will pass a law and the Supreme Court might become involved. Why are the Government doing this when there is no need for it? The public services are devolved. I urge the Minister to think carefully about his reply.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment because we need to establish a clear principle here: if the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly are funding a service, they should have an element of control over the terms and conditions of their employees who are running it. It should come as no surprise to anyone here that I hold that view, because I spoke on this matter during the passage of the Trade Union Bill.

The Welsh Assembly has long had considerable powers —for example, over doctors’ pay, terms and conditions. The doctors’ contract could in principle be completely different in Wales from that in England. It is not, for reasons of pragmatic certainty and manageability, but it could be. I see that the Government have signed an amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Humphreys on teachers’ pay and conditions. That is very much along the same lines as the issues that we raise in this amendment.

The Assembly effectively gained such powers after the agricultural wages issue was referred to the Supreme Court. I was in the Wales Office at that time. I am sure I came to this House and told noble Lords that we firmly believed that the issue of agricultural wages was not devolved, but the Supreme Court found otherwise. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, was probably quite surprised by the Supreme Court’s judgment, too; I do not think he believed that he had devolved agricultural wages or any other issue of that nature in the 2006 Act. The Supreme Court’s interpretation of it is not in some way unmanageable or at odds with everything else; it can be viewed as completely consistent with other aspects of the Assembly’s work.

I ask the Minister to think about the issue of trust, of what it will look like in Wales, if the Government try to row back on what has now been accepted as part of the powers of the Assembly. I urge the Government to think again.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I have always felt that Welsh-language broadcasting should be part of the general broadcasting pool, not isolated from the rest of broadcasting. That way, I felt, there would be cross-fertilisation and Welsh-language broadcasting would not be seen as out of the usual in broadcasting.

On balance, though, it is clear that S4C has been under threat in recent years. Year after year, the Wales Office has to ride to the rescue of S4C by explaining to a Minister elsewhere in government why Welsh-language broadcasting is important and significant, and why it has a totemic importance in Wales well beyond the relatively small amounts of money that the Government are trying to cut from its annual amount. Indeed, if the control of S4C were devolved to the Welsh Assembly, I think S4C would still find itself under threat because it is responsible for spending a significant proportion of the total amount of money spent every year on the Welsh language. There are lots of other aspects of huge importance to the development of the Welsh language that would want part of that total amount of funding.

I do not think devolution is necessarily the answer but there needs to be a new settlement, a new concordat, or at the very least some kind of agreement between the UK Government and the Welsh Government to ensure that, year after year, the position of S4C is secure, not just in law and in theory but financially. The financial position of S4C should be secure so that there is not this constant fire sale going on. I therefore urge the Minister to look at a suitable solution to what I am sure he will acknowledge is a recurring problem.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen]

My Lords, on more than one occasion, I probably rode to the rescue of S4C myself, and I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about the financial dangers unless we have guarantees. At the moment, the Welsh language is rightly devolved to the Welsh Assembly, so it would seem logical—would it not?—that Welsh-language broadcasting should be also. There are two issues that we should consider. First, Welsh-language radio broadcasting would presumably stay with the BBC. More significantly, were S4C to be devolved to the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Government, there should be a proper financial settlement to go with it. At the moment, the United Kingdom Government provide the funds for S4C; were it to be devolved, that financial settlement absolutely must be devolved with it.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Baroness Randerson

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 13, 14 and 17. I must declare an interest as a governor of Cardiff Metropolitan University and an honorary fellow of Cardiff University.

As the Minister has outlined, these amendments reflect concern expressed by Universities Wales, which represents the Welsh higher education sector, about inclusion in the list. It gave evidence of that concern to the Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, whose report has been circulated to noble Lords. The basis of the concern is that this may lead to inclusion as a public sector body by the ONS. Noble Lords may recall that a reclassification of this kind occurred for Network Rail. That reclassification was undertaken with the full agreement of the Treasury but its impact on Network Rail has been to have a huge effect on its ability to borrow.

Higher education institutions are clearly concerned about their ability to borrow. They are currently classified by the ONS as non-profit institutions serving households; they are therefore part of the private sector and, along with most other charities, enjoy that status. This reflects the extent of public sector control, as set out in EU accounting requirements. I must stress that universities regard themselves as independent organisations. They value their academic and institutional autonomy and are treated as public bodies for only a small number of very specific purposes—for example, for freedom of information purposes. It is true that higher education provision and fees are highly regulated but in Wales, less than 10% of university income comes from direct public funding. The ONS is already reviewing the classification of Welsh universities in the light of the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015.

In England, the proposed higher education and research Bill will address complexities for those higher education institutions established as corporations, but that Bill will not affect Wales. So the potential reclassification by the ONS will badly affect higher education in Wales because all Welsh HEIs are charities. The Charity Commission is clear in its guidance, which says that a charity,

“must exist in order to carry out its charitable purposes, and not for the purposes of implementing the policies of a governmental authority”.

A breach of this rule could of course impact on governors as well, who could be held personally liable. It would obviously have a massive impact on Welsh higher education’s ability to raise funding for research and to assist poorer students, and on those institutions’ tax status.

Understandably, Welsh universities do not welcome their inclusion as public authorities, but neither should the Welsh Government nor the UK Government. If they are reclassified by the ONS, their debts and spending will go on the Government’s balance sheet. They will go first on the Welsh Government’s balance sheet and affect their ability to borrow because universities in Wales have a significant borrowing requirement of their own, which would of course detract from the ability of the Welsh Government to borrow in addition to that. In turn, it would go on the Treasury’s balance sheet.

I am surprised that the Welsh Government have indicated that they do not feel this is a problem and are not concerned about the inclusion of universities in this list. When I think of it, it is perhaps not entirely surprising because there has been a tendency over many years for the Welsh Government to seek greater control over the public sector, which the Minister will be aware of as an ex-Assembly Member. However it is important to remind noble Lords that the international reputation of our universities rests on their independence from government. Many were established as charitable foundations, and all continue to rely on charitable funding and on funds that rely on their charitable status. Universities in Wales are part of the devolved settlement, as the Minister said, and are hence subject to rules that are slightly different from those in the rest of the UK, but they are very definitely part of a UK-wide sector and of an international market, so they must not be undermined by incorrect classification in the Bill. This is a probing amendment, and I am glad to hear from the Minister that he will consider this matter further. I will be grateful for his further comments when he has time.

Finally, and briefly, the further education sector was also established autonomously in the 1990s. The FE sector has higher levels of direct government funding, but it values its independence, its ability to respond to the market and its flexibility. I will be grateful if the Minister looks at both sectors in detail before we discuss this issue again.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen]

My Lords, I understand what the noble Baroness said about the charitable status of Welsh universities, and it is important that the Minister goes back and examines whether it is put at risk by this part of the Bill.

I cannot for the life of me understand Amendment 14, which excludes the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales from the Welsh public authorities list. It is not a university; it is a body that administers funding to the universities. It gets all its money from the Welsh Government, so I cannot quite understand the amendment, particularly because a recent review of non-compulsory post-16 education in Wales indicated that this body will be replaced by a new body dealing with funding for higher education and further education, which is a good thing. The amendment is an incongruous insertion when the argument is about universities and, to a certain extent, further education colleges somehow losing their charitable status, independence, right to borrow and so on. I would value the Minister’s comments on why the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is part of this scene.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I have great sympathy with the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. Although I understand the principle of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, I fear that it takes rather too hard-line an approach to an important issue of principle. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. The principle here is not the individual convenience of candidates who stand for the Assembly or those who are elected to the Assembly, but the fundamental principle that you should not be a member of a legislature to which you are not subject yourself. You should not pass laws that you yourself do not have to obey and take heed of. That supersedes anything that can be said about the practical problems, which undoubtedly exist, for people who live on the border. I think the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, deals with that issue in that you do not have to go through the upheaval of moving to Wales if you live a couple of hundred yards over the border. Indeed, if you live in the middle of Surrey, you do not have to go through that upheaval until you are elected.

Until this Assembly term, it has always been taken for granted that you would live in Wales. I recall that when the current Assembly Member for Cardiff Central was first selected as the Labour candidate, she lived in Islington, but she felt obliged to obtain a small flat in Cardiff when she became the Labour candidate—and rightly so. It is important that people feel obliged to live in Wales, that they feel part of the Welsh culture and that they understand Welsh media and Welsh issues. Without living in Wales, that cannot be so. Therefore, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen]

My Lords, I agreed to put my name to the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hain because it is both timely and relevant as the Wales Bill passes through this House. It is not all about Neil Hamilton but it is a bit about him in the sense that he is, as far as I am aware, the very first Member of the National Assembly for Wales who has not lived in Wales. Not only has he not lived in Wales but he lives a long way from Wales, and it highlights why we, as a Parliament, should address this issue—it is different from the franchise that we have known in our country for generations. We are talking about a country; we are not talking about a constituency. I think it is important that you live in your constituency but that is another issue; sometimes it is not practicable or reasonable to do so. However, we are talking about a country that now has a legislative Assembly which passes primary and secondary legislation for that country and which runs the country in many different ways.

The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, asked, very relevantly, what happens if you live in a town or village bang on the border. Of course, the border between England and Wales is very different from, for example, the Northern Ireland and Ireland border and it is different from the Scottish/English border, which has lots of built-up areas on it. However, there is a big difference between being a few hundred yards away in Monmouth and being in Wiltshire, and that in a way—