House of Lords Reform

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, that advice was certainly relevant yesterday, when 80 people spoke in the debate and I was 71st. But it gave me time to reflect on the nature of yesterday’s debate on the Budget. It was weighty, informed, very impressive and very civilised. In the 40 years that I have been in Parliament, 10 of them here, I have been deeply impressed by the level of debate and of course by the level of revision and scrutiny of legislation that comes before us, but we do need reform. It seems to me that the House is too big. Perhaps the ideas of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, today could be looked at by my noble friend the Leader of the House as to how we could do that. Naturally, as someone who was born in 1948, I prefer the idea of participation rather than of age, but I say to the party opposite that there were two occasions during the last Parliament when we could have partly resolved that. One was through what my noble friend Lord Grocott was doing in terms of by-elections for hereditary peerages and the second was what the noble Lord, Lord Burns, did with his report. Had we adopted both those suggestions, perhaps it would not be quite so difficult today.

I was privileged to be a member of Gordon Brown’s Labour Party commission on the constitution. He came up with some excellent recommendations on how to tackle the overcentralised state that we are in at the moment and to deal with devolution. I have to agree with my noble friend Mr Roger Liddle about where we go in the political landscape we currently have, which is different from what it was when I entered Parliament a long time ago. We now have devolved Parliaments in Wales and Scotland, and happily now too in Northern Ireland. Great areas of England are governed by mayors, and there is a very strong case for this House to be able to reflect and represent the nations and regions of our United Kingdom—partly, incidentally, to ensure that it remains a United Kingdom by having such representation here. I will give my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal an idea: in the meantime, while we discuss these things in the months and years ahead, is it possible, for example, that former First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could be offered peerages in order to come here and give their experience? A lot might not want to do that, but the offer should nevertheless be made.

One of the recommendations of Gordon Brown’s commission regarded the House of Lords. Ultimately, after a lot of deliberation, he came to the conclusion, which I did not share, that the House of Lords should be completely directly elected. I gave a dissenting opinion, which was that, in my view—and only mine—the House could be partly elected but that an overwhelmingly elected House would be wrong. I believe that it would be wrong because it would be a rival to the House of Commons. I say that not as a Member of the House of Lords but as someone who was in the House of Commons for 30 years. If we elect a House of Lords, particularly if it is elected by a method of proportional representation, inevitably those who are elected to this place in those circumstances will argue that their mandate is greater and more democratic than that of Members of the House of Commons.

Power in this country must reside in the elected House of Commons entirely. We of course should complement that, in the way we do now and in different, reformed ways to come. That, in my view, is the bottom line. However, I see that there are many cases for reform. It has taken 113 years to get to where we are, and I hope it will not take 113 years to reform. Many ideas will flow from this debate today but ultimately, our position as a revising Chamber, a Chamber for scrutiny and debate, remains unparalleled.

Patrick Finucane Murder

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to make it clear and put on the record that there is no hierarchy of pain or justice. Everybody touched by the Troubles deserves answers; it is why and how we engage in legacy that is so important. Yesterday’s decision by the Secretary of State is the fulfilment of our commitment made at Weston Park 23 years ago—many years before the establishment of the commission and the appointment of Sir Declan Morgan. However, I am delighted that Sir Declan Morgan has the confidence of the noble Baroness, and I look forward to working with her in the months and perhaps years ahead, depending on how long my appointment lasts, as we discuss these issues in great depth.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, there is time for both noble Lords to speak. I suggest that we hear first from the former Secretary of State.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench. I am sure she will do a wonderful job as the spokesperson on Northern Ireland. When I was Secretary of State, I received the Cory report, which recommended four public inquiries. We agreed on three, but then deferred the Finucane inquiry for a bit longer because of prosecutions. Then, 20 years ago, as stated in the Statement, I made a commitment in the House of Commons to hold a public inquiry. For various reasons, that did not happen. So it is timely that that is happening now. I very much welcome this Statement and hope it will be the end of a very painful matter. I ask my noble friend, first, about the timescale for this—although she has touched on that—and, secondly, about the consultation that has been held with Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive. It is extremely important that there is a great deal of their involvement in this, and also—it has been test-run by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan—with the Irish Government and the Government of the United States of America.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

There are so many noble Lords in this House who participated and delivered peace in Northern Ireland—none more so than my noble friend Lord Murphy. I am very grateful, both for his mentorship and for the work that he did throughout his time as Secretary of State and that he continues to do to ensure that these matters are raised on a regular basis.

On the specific questions that my noble friend raised, he will know much better than I, given his former roles, that on the timescale, as fast as we may wish to go, we have responsibilities under the Inquiries Act 2005, which we will follow, and we will report to the House in due course. We hope to establish the public inquiry as quickly as possible, and I look forward to returning to your Lordships’ House with more detail as quickly as I can.

With regard to the consultation on future legacy arrangements that I believe my noble friend was touching on, we will of course be working with the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive to make sure that they are fully engaged in our future arrangements, and that any future changes to the legacy Act have their confidence to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. On that note, I want to put on record how delighted the Government are that both the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive are up and running and that their programme for government was published this week. In terms of engagement with the Republic of Ireland, before we announced the inquiry, the Secretary of State engaged with the Tánaiste, Micheál Martin, and spoke to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland to make sure that everybody was up to date and informed before a decision was made.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill [HL]

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, about 12 years ago, when I was a Member of the House of Commons, I spoke on the Bill that brought in women bishops for the Church of England. In fact, I went to the Library earlier today to ensure that what I said 12 years ago would chime with what I shall say today and that I had not changed my mind in that decade—and I have not.

It was unusual for me to take part in that debate at that time for two reasons, one of which still is the case. The first is that I am a Roman Catholic—my mother’s family were Anglican, but I am a practising Catholic—so what business is it of mine to take part in a debate about whether the Church of England should do this or that? The other reason was that I was an MP representing a Welsh constituency, and the Church in Wales has been disestablished for over 100 years. There are no Welsh bishops represented in the House of Lords. As a Catholic Welsh MP, I decided over a period of nearly 25 years not to take part in debates on these issues because of those two reasons.

However, I decided 12 years ago that I should do so, not necessarily because I agreed with women bishops, although I think I agree with women priests. It will take an awfully long time for my church to get to that position; it needs to get married priests before it gets women priests. I once talked to an eminent Catholic archbishop who said to me, “Well, if you have women priests then the logic says you will have women bishops after that”, and I agreed with that. So, when that Bill came before the House of Commons, I supported it, as I support this one and as I support the right of the 26 Bishops to be Members of this House.

I could not agree less with what the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Birt, said. I respect their views, but I do not agree with them, for a number of reasons. In the first instance, the contributions made to our House by our Bishops are first-class. No, they do not have a monopoly on morality—no one has that—but they talk on issues that are important and they bring a perspective that is different. Women Bishops in particular give a certain perspective that we ought to listen to. Our debates on whole areas, including international affairs and national affairs, are excellent when it comes to the contributions made by our colleague Bishops.

I believe that the Anglican Church is a force for good in our country and in the world. I recall when I was the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and before that when I was helping to chair the peace process in Northern Ireland, that the churches—which had over the years a lot to answer for for what happened in that part of our country—were making a particularly important contribution to the peace process. I pay tribute in this place particularly to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who was then the Archbishop of Armagh, and whose contribution to peace in Northern Ireland is second to none. So I do not agree that the contributions are not good; they are good and benefit the people of our country and benefit this House as well.

I also believe it is right to bring a Christian perspective to this House. I suppose when I entered the House of Commons in 1987 more people classified themselves as Christians than they do today, but nearly half of our population still does. I also think that, in the same way that non-Christian people from other faiths attend Church of England and Catholic schools because they believe that there is a moral education that they can get from those schools, so it is that the religious point of view can be expressed through the 26 Bishops on these Benches just below me.

I classify myself as a Christian Socialist—both designations can be unfashionable these days, but they do go together. It was Morgan Phillips, a great Welshman and secretary of the Labour Party, who said that the Labour Party owes more to Methodism than it does to Marx, and I believe he was right. When I joined the Labour Party just 60 years ago next month, there were Labour Party branches in south Wales which opened with a hymn. I am not going to pretend to sing “Cwm Rhondda” in the House of Lords before we conclude this debate, but what I will do is wish this Bill well, wish our Bishops well and wish them continuing membership of this House in the years to come.