House of Lords: Size

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, not for the first time this House is indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his continuing interest in House of Lords reform.

In a country that prides itself on being the standard bearer of democratic institutions, a visitor from Mars would find the size of this House hilarious—not to mention the number of Liberal Democrats, which bears no relation to the democratic last general election. In concentrating on numbers of this House, I fear that the noble Lord is putting the cart before the horse. It is the functions of this House as a component of Parliament that should be determined first, and it is only secondly that we should move on to numbers. We should decide whether this House should be only a reviewing Chamber, or whether its role should be a wider one than this—a full-blooded legislative Chamber. I doubt it—although that may be a minority view.

Governments in the past had no compunction in clipping the wings of this House—in the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949. In the absence of a constitutional convention and a Bill of Rights, I believe that the way forward is a simple amendment to the Parliament Act 1949 to remove altogether the existing, although reduced, power of delaying legislation by this House. If that were done, the only function of this House as regards legislation would be a reviewing one. There would be a time limit for such a review. During that time the House could debate and express its views in the form of amendments. The amended Bill would be returned to the Commons for any second thoughts it might have. If the Commons stood its ground and rejected the Lords amendments, it would be the end of the matter and consideration of legislation here would come to an end. The Commons could send the Bill, unamended, straight to Her Majesty for signature.

This House would have had its opportunity to carry out its reviewing role, which could be important, and it would have offered its views to the Commons for its further consideration—but that would be all. The amendment to the 1949 Parliament Act would be simple, and on the lines that the 1949 Act amended the 1911 Act, but in this case abolishing all powers of delay rather than limiting them. Once our functions had been determined, the question of the number of Peers required would, I believe, be solved more easily. It would be open for discussion how many would be needed in a reviewing-only Chamber—probably in the low or mid-hundreds. I hope they would be appointed for their expertise.

When I was at school, I grappled with the arithmetical problem of working out the time it would take to empty a water tank that was still being filled with water. There is a touch of Alice in Wonderland about a debate on exploring methods of reducing the numbers of this House while at the same time Prime Ministers continue to exercise unlimited powers to make more and more recommendations to reward friends and/or help the Whips to get legislation through, by repeatedly refilling the water tank with more Members.

The machinery for appointments goes to the heart of the problem. I would add that if this House became a reviewing-only Chamber, the case for an elected House would be considerably weakened, if not destroyed, and the paramountcy of the Commons would be reaffirmed. I was in Washington at the time of the colossal gridlock between the House of Representatives and the Senate. I have no wish to encourage a scenario of two elected Houses, horns locked with each other.

Universities: Freedom of Speech

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Universities are uniquely placed to provide intellectual and robust challenge to narratives and they must continue to do this. Of course, students and academics have the right to protest peacefully but this cannot lead to intimidation, harassment or the silencing of those they disagree with. That must be stopped.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, if a proposed speech is known to be unlawful I would understand any appropriate restrictions, but would not succumbing to mob rule to deny freedom of expression be wholly contrary to the ethos and purpose of a university? I speak as a former chancellor of a university.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I entirely agree with the sentiments of the noble and learned Lord. Unfortunately, it has seemed at times that student unions have taken a somewhat inconsistent approach to freedom of speech—actively inviting speakers who promote intolerance but banning and silencing others. As I have said, the Government are supporting university leaderships to make sure that we preserve freedom of speech. It is hugely important and allows students the opportunity to challenge and debate ideas, which is part of the whole purpose of going to university.

Strathclyde Review

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and to his advisers for the speed with which he has produced his report. My contribution today will draw on my written submission to the noble Lord and is much wider than his terms of reference. My noble friend Lord Darling, whose most excellent speech I welcome, said that he was concerned about piecemeal changes. It is my long-standing belief that piecemeal reform will not do.

I played a small part in encouraging my friends to set up the Kilbrandon commission on the constitution. It was effective as a catalyst for devolution and major legislation. I believe that there should be another constitutional convention to consider, deliberate on and opine on a wide range of options and, having done so, with a hope for a more permanent and comprehensive settlement for Parliament as a whole.

In my time, I have seen many attempts at House of Lords reform. Drawing a veil over the Clegg-inspired reforms, my mind goes back to the joint attack of Michael Foot and Enoch Powell on the reform attempt in the 1960s. When the plug was pulled on that Bill, Michael Foot uttered memorable words regarding the efforts of the two junior Ministers who were left in charge of it. They were the future Lord Merlyn-Rees and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, whose speedy return to this House we wish for. Mr Foot said that never had so much bravery been shown,

“since the boy stood on the burning deck”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/4/69; col. 885.]

And that was the night the plug was pulled on the Bill.

I confess that I did not vote in the tax credit Divisions last October. As many noble Lords have said, the Government should not have used the statutory instrument procedure, with its inadequate discussion in the Commons, to deprive a large number of the poorest people like those whom I had the privilege of representing in the Commons for more than 41 years. But I do not buy the argument that a convention was broken. In the words of my noble friend Lord Richard, primary legislation should have been used. Nevertheless, it was not right to deny the Commons its right to change taxation, despite the machinery adopted.

I believe in the paramountcy of the elected House and that there is a way to put that beyond peradventure for almost all occasions and, at the same time, to spell out a role for our own non-elected House for the future. I surmise that my radical solution—the one that I would propose—will not appeal to most of your Lordships. I believe that the way forward is to revisit the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949 together, to learn from the simple mechanism that they adopted. Incidentally, we forget the rather plaintive words of the 1911 Act’s preamble as to the substitution of a hereditary House with a popularly based House. It said that,

“such substitution cannot be immediately brought into operation”.

Rather than pursuing that aim more than 100 years later, my suggestion is that we should copy and adopt that machinery for this House’s power to delay legislation which shortened the period in the 1911 Act to the 1949 Act by what amounts to one year. I propose removing this House’s powers to delay legislation altogether—hence, I am sure, it is too radical for most of your Lordships. The shearing away of this House’s power to delay would result in this House having power only to consider Commons legislation—in short, to review it and scrutinise it. This would apply to both primary and secondary legislation, with which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has been wrestling.

This House could of course then debate amendments, and any amendments made would be returned to the Commons. They would have the benefit of our discussions. If, then, the Commons disapproved of our amendments, that would be the end of the matter. The Commons, unless directed to the contrary, would present the Bill for Her Majesty’s approval and it would become an Act of Parliament on Royal Assent being signified thereto, notwithstanding that the Lords had not consented.

It would be essential to include a maximum period for your Lordships to consider any particular Commons Bill, so that consideration did not become delay by another name. When I said earlier that I was dealing with almost all occasions, of course the present exclusion as amended of the Parliament Acts as regards extending the maximum period of the length of the Parliament would remain. That would be fundamental.

My simple amendment would end the argument about the overuse of statutory instruments and reaffirm the primacy of the Commons in all respects. There would then be no danger of gridlock between Commons and Lords. I was a witness to gridlock between the Senate and Congress in Washington on that fateful weekend in July 2011. It is my belief that the result would be a substantial weakening of any case for an elected House, and it would be a matter for another time to consider the fettering of the Prime Minister’s power to top up, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, the membership of this House. The noble Lord’s words regarding the Irish Senate were perhaps too close for comfort.

Devolution: England

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the thought of Manchester having a Conservative mayor is a great one but, having lived there for some years, I am not sure that it is very likely to happen any time soon. Obviously the referendum some years ago on having a mayor was held under totally different principles from those that we have today, and local authorities can engage with their communities and their electors in any way that they see fit.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will not be surprised if I cannot answer that question.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Blunkett!

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I refer noble Lords back to the process in London. When we first had an elected mayor in London there was scepticism, to say the least, about how effective the London mayor might be and how popular it might be as a concept. Fast-forward some years from that process, and we find that people are fighting to get that nomination and it has become one of the most sought-after positions in the country.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Labour Benches, but I urge the noble Lords to decide between themselves whom they would like to give way.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, is it right for a small country such as the United Kingdom to have four nations developing systems of government at different speeds? Do the Government rule out a constitutional convention, rather than allowing piecemeal development?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a constitutional convention is not on the cards at the moment. However, the Government are clear that they will not impose any sort of identikit model on each area. It is up to each area to decide how it wishes to take forward devolution proposals, and to take those forward with government.

BBC Royal Charter

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, the House seems to be calling for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, but we have plenty of time and we have not heard from the Liberal Democrat Benches either. I suggest that we hear first from the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and then move to the Liberal Democrats.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Baroness’s point about the power and importance of the creative industries, and of course the BBC plays a huge part in that, not least around the world because of the respect that it is accorded.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, are there plans to consult on the BBC’s partial funding of the Welsh television channel S4C?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, the Government are committed to strong Welsh language broadcasting, although the funding arrangements for the future are clearly for the charter review. I am sure they will be looked at in that context. It is really important to safeguard Welsh language broadcasting. When I was on maternity leave, I was a big fan of “Pobol y Cwm”, which you can get in the south-west, where I was spending some time.

Iraq

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, this country has a long-standing tradition of support for the United Nations, which we helped to create in San Francisco in 1945. The only aberration was the Suez fiasco. Unfortunately, the founding fathers never contemplated that, because of the power of the veto, the charter could become unworkable. Article 2.4 prohibits the intentional use of force except for self-defence or with the authority of the UN Security Council. Self-defence is an elastic proposition, and we are told that the Attorney-General has given his opinion that the prohibition on the use of force by one state in the territory of another does not apply if the territorial state so requests or consents. That, in my view, is beyond argument.

Apart from the practical considerations of one country in the alliance carrying out attacks at the same time on another country—Syria, which has not consented—are there any limitations on the doctrine? How far do we go, and for how long? Is it to be the two or three years being contemplated by the Defence Secretary? Did the Attorney-General qualify his opinion at all? We have seen only a summary of his legal opinion. Given that so much is at stake, there is in my view a case for breaking with precedent and being taken into the Government’s confidence, particularly if the Attorney-General has indicated any limits to our actions.

In his article in the Sunday Telegraph, the Prime Minister wrote about sending our armies “to fight or occupy”. Perhaps I may say that they were not very well considered remarks, and neither was the reference to the use of all our resources, including “military prowess”, although he may well have rethought that one. I am glad that for now we are not considering Syria. The legal considerations might well be different. It would hardly be self-defence and would certainly not be an intervention at the invitation of a host country. It would more likely be intervention to avoid “an overwhelming humanitarian disaster”, or unless we obtain an appropriate UN Security Council resolution, which seems very unlikely.

At Attorney-General, I had the responsibility at the time of Kosovo to provide a legal basis for participation in bombing raids by NATO countries. For more than 60 days I ensured on a daily basis—or usually nightly—that on this country’s part we had to consider and agree that each raid was carried out in accordance with the Geneva conventions. I hope very much that, in this present matter of attacks in Iraq, the Attorney-General will play an equally important and constant role to ensure that the Geneva conventions are adhered to. For our actions in Kosovo, which were to avert what I believed, and what was generally agreed by the United Nations, to be an overwhelming humanitarian disaster, I set out particularly detailed considerations. I shall summarise them. First, there was convincing evidence of need. Secondly, there was no practical alternative. Thirdly, it was necessary and proportionate, which means that it was the minimum necessary.

In his opinion on Syria last year, Mr Dominic Grieve QC MP agreed word for word with my particular considerations, and I am grateful. However, we did not see the whole opinion, we saw only the summary, and I wonder whether he suggested to the Cabinet that this particular doctrine was still developing and capable of challenge. I was challenged. I was taken to the International Court of Justice along with nine other countries, and I led for the United Kingdom. At the time Yugoslavia, which was suing, fortunately failed for other reasons. All I am saying is that this particular route would not be without difficulties, and very different considerations would apply to what we are now considering as regards Iraq.

G8 Summit

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the second point made by my noble friend, which echoed that made by the noble Lord, Lord Wright. On the first point about Northern Ireland, the noble Lord knows better than most in the Chamber what the situation was and the extent of the work that had to be done. He was closely involved with that. It is a powerful symbol of what can be achieved if people are prepared to take those brave decisions.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, perhaps I may explore the assurance in the Statement that Parliament will have its say on Syria. Do I take it that there will have to be specific parliamentary approval, as the convention has now grown?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Yesterday, at some length, and earlier today, the Prime Minister set out what that means: were the Government to decide that they wanted to arm the rebels—which they have not—it would be subject to a vote.

Iraq: Chilcot Inquiry

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I can give that assurance. It is extremely important that this inquiry is independent; it was set up very deliberately to be independent and it must have that independence. It must consider the evidence that it has and reach its conclusions, which we will all be able to see in the fullness of time, but it must have a free hand to do that.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, having been involved in the setting up of some public inquiries, I have noticed a tendency for them to be longer and longer. I understand the need to collect all the material evidence, and for all due processes to take place. In future, if any public inquiry is set up, should not a time limit be imposed and, furthermore, an extension granted only in exceptional circumstances?

Arrangement of Business

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the records reveal that the Public Bill Office has had to correspond in these circumstances on only five occasions in the past 20 years. On every occasion, the Member concerned respected the advice of the Public Bill Office and the amendment was not moved.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

Will the Leader of the House make it quite clear beyond peradventure that the ultimate decision is for the House and that the concept of scope and relevance is not without difficulty?

Iraq: Chilcot Inquiry

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I would not want anyone to think that I was agreeing with either the word “illegal” or “legal”. The inquiry is taking an enormous amount of evidence, which, no doubt, will be published in several volumes. At that stage, we will be able to take a far better and more rigorous view as to exactly what happened.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, if the report has been finalised, why will it take from now until the middle of next year for the consultations with those being criticised to take place?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the inquiry has said that it is determined to be rigorous, fair and frank. It soon expects to be in a position to begin this process of Maxwellisation. Once that process is complete, the inquiry will submit its report to the Prime Minister. It is understood that that is unlikely to be until the latter part of next year.