First World War: Personnel from the Indian Subcontinent

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, this debate, admirably launched by the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, is very welcome. It enables us to pay proper tribute to the courage and sacrifice of the over 1 million Indian troops who took part in the First World War, as well as enabling us to test the Government’s resolve: how far will they subscribe to what we heard from the Minister, that the commemoration of the war would not be a celebration of militarism but would deal with matters such as the role of women, trade unions and new currents in poetry, and that in the case of Ireland it would focus not only on the Irish troops who volunteered to fight in the war, but also on the fact that it led to the Easter Rising and to the domination of Sinn Fein?

So it should be in India. As we have heard in a series of admirable speeches, Indian troops fought in very large numbers on the western front and in east Africa; enormous numbers fought in Mesopotamia and at the terrible siege of Kut al-Amara. The names of Indian troops are recorded in monuments in at Neuve Chapelle and on the Menin Gate. My own father served with Indian troops in the First World War in Palestine and always spoke with enormous warmth about that experience.

Gandhi encouraged Indians to volunteer for the British Army. At the same time, it is important to say how Gandhi shows how the war changed the perceptions of so many public figures in India. He was not at first the major nationalist in India—that was BG Tilak, who founded the Home Rule League. By the end of the war, Gandhi was convinced that the experiences of India in the war—the sacrifice of Indian troops—had given a new sense of unity and identity to all Indians; as we know, Gandhi worked a great deal with Muslims as well as with Hindus. The war gave the movement for home rule—swaraj—and Gandhi himself a new historical significance. Gandhi therefore illustrates what we should perhaps most fundamentally commemorate about the First World War.

We should note how the war encouraged movements in India to expand and to take up wider horizons. At first, Gandhi himself focused on internal issues within India—famously, the role of the untouchables, which he worked in a dedicated fashion to cope with in his own community. But by the end of the war he was adopting a much wider viewpoint, and challenging what he saw as the harshness of British rule, and how far a war supposedly fought to liberate subject nationalities was in fact reinforcing British control over his country. It is enormously important both for Gandhi and for the Indian nationalist movement that the First World War within India encouraged the famous non-violent strategies with which Gandhi is associated to work against the grain of imperial policy and win support for Indian nationalism outside India. Gandhi did this very conspicuously, if I may say so, within the Labour Party.

The First World War should be commemorated above all because in India, and thereby in a wider world, it was a period of historic change. The legacy of the Indian troops fighting so gallantly, on the western front and elsewhere, was not a stronger commitment of Indians to imperial rule; it marked the beginning of the end for the Raj. It was followed by the Rowlatt Bills against what was called terrorism, and by the terrible massacre at Amritsar. General Dyer was sacked after Amritsar, but Indians were appalled by the sympathy shown by many people in this country for his conduct. It is deeply to the discredit to the House of Lords that at that time it passed a Motion sympathising with and supporting General Dyer.

The legacy of the war appears to be commemorated in the imperial architecture of Lutyens and Baker in New Delhi. But the most prescient observer of these developments was the former French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau, who said that it would be,

“the grandest ruin of them all”.

That, perhaps, is what we should be commemorating.

Atheists and Humanists: Contribution to Society

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, I will make one point and one point only. Modern Britain has had the enormous benefit of not being torn apart by doctrinal or political conflict between the churches and unbelievers. That has been an enormous contribution to our social peace and very different from, for example, the situation in France, which is relevant as it is my wife’s country. She is a Huguenot—a Protestant—and the Huguenot community have suffered from the savagery of intolerant belief. There has been a long confrontation between church and state in modern France, including bitter assaults on the church by freemasons, republicans and socialists. The church itself has identified with nationalists, militarists and, during the Dreyfus case, anti-Semites. It is still evident today, in the disgraceful attacks on Muslim women in France in the name of secularism. This kind of intolerance is perhaps most notable in Catholic countries but is also visible in Protestant ones—witness the role of the religious right in the United States.

Why have we been luckier? In my opinion, it is for two historical reasons. The churches have discovered how to retreat, while atheists and humanists have discovered how to protest properly. The church, as we know, had a virtual monopoly of civil and social power in the early 19th century in Britain. It was persuaded—or politically forced—to give way on issue after issue, such as admission to universities and religious rites. It retreated in its views on science, coming to accept evolution, and on social issues such as property rights and industrial relations. Most powerfully, as we discovered in this House recently, it has profitably retreated in its views on moral attitudes, most notably on the debate on gay marriage. The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, was able to appeal to the better angels of our nature as we considered that issue.

I have the honour of following the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, and one of the most remarkable retreats was in Wales, where the church accepted its own disestablishment and being seized out of the part of the province of Canterbury. The view of the Church in Wales—yr Eglwys yng Nghymru—as a Church of England in Wales is now completely out of date.

Equally, atheists and humanists have become much more effective in their approach. Beginning, perhaps, from a literary or philosophical emphasis—Diderot and the encyclopaedists have been mentioned—they added scientific triumphalism in the 19th century. Humanists assumed power in public life, for example John Morley, who famously described Gladstone with a large G and God with a small one. Atheists were forced to defend themselves—Bradlaugh did, for example, in order to take his seat in the House of Commons—and non-religious conscientious objectors were persecuted in both world wars. However, the more aggressive and divisive forms of protest were broadly rejected. Dogmatic anti-religious creeds such as positivism or Auguste Comte’s religion of humanity were not accepted and made little headway in this country. The emphasis, if one can so describe it, was on humanism—the value of the individual, the power of an individual’s moral quest for truth and the values of human brotherhood resulting from that—rather than on doctrinaire atheism.

I am very struck by the famous atheist George Jacob Holyoake, who chose in 1851 to describe himself as a secularist not as an atheist. He took part in a famous debate with Bradlaugh on the proposition: “The principles of Secularism do not include Atheism”. His heroes were humanist men of letters such as Erasmus and Montaigne, who have been mentioned today and who both of course declared themselves to be Christians. So it has been that humanists, as we have heard, have been able to act effectively with religious idealists in progressive crusades, from the anti-slavery to the anti-apartheid movements.

The outstanding product of that is the outfit to which 10 of the 17 speakers this afternoon belong—the Labour Party. It was hugely important, with all respect to my noble friend who just spoke, that the Labour Party did not lapse into the anti-clericalism of the French or German socialist parties. The views of the Labour Party were pluralist. They ranged from the undoubted atheism of the Webbs, many of the Fabians and HG Wells, side-by-side with members of the Independent Labour Party in South Wales and in the West Riding, which brought in a Christian ethos. Nothing was more stimulating for the labour movement in south Wales than the religious revival of 1904. I make that point because I made it in my first book and nobody paid any attention, so perhaps 50-odd years on people will pay attention.

The Labour Party has had a series of Christian leaders, down to Gordon Brown. The one declared atheist I recall was Michael Foot, whose rhetoric and values were shaped by Cornish chapels. His values formed a bridge, I think, within the labour movement. In the social Christianity of our age, Tawney has been, I believe, our dominant philosophical inspiration. The Labour Party benefited from this. The whole range of creeds has worked for social justice. Now I hope they will work for the doctrine of human rights, which massively appeals both to humanists and to Christians. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is truly universal in that sense. I conclude by saying that modern Britain has found this confluence of faith an enriching experience. It has made it a healthier, more humane and more tolerant society.

Equal Marriage Consultation

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his remarks and support. He has very eloquently described why this is an important step forward and why—with the right safeguards in place to protect religious freedoms—we will be able to bring forward a right that many people should feel is theirs and which they can enjoy.

[Lord Morgan]

Like others in the Labour Party, I declare my support for this measure, which is liberal, humane and in accordance with the progressive consensus in our society, particularly among young people. This is not a young House and it is important that we strike a chord with younger people.

However, the Statement contained a quite absurd historical error: it referred to the established church in England and Wales. In Wales, the church has been disestablished since 1920. I declare an interest as the only living author of a book on that subject, and I hope I did not put quill to parchment in vain. I just wonder what the situation will be in Wales.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Lord was speaking, my heart started to miss a beat. I only hope that I read out a version that had not been corrected by my right honourable friend. I am absolutely clear about the noble Lord’s point that the Church in Wales is disestablished now, but the safeguards apply to the Church in Wales as they do to the Church of England because the Church in Wales has a duty to marriage in the same way that the Church of England has. Therefore, all limbs of those safeguards will apply to the Church in Wales.

Health: Pneumoconiosis

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

As noble Lords may imagine, when I was asked this Question I tried to get more fine detail, but it simply is not available. There is a division between those suffering from mesothelioma and those suffering from other diseases; that is the only breakdown that we have. I cannot provide the information that the noble Lord requested.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, perhaps in common with other noble Lords I have members of my family who worked in the slate quarries and died as a result of their employment. When the Act was passed by the Callaghan Government in 1979, Members of the Commons were assured that there would be an equality of authority for workers in the slate quarrying industry—a small, fragmented, rural industry—and those in more powerful and numerous groups working in, let us say, the coal-mining and textile industries. In view of the figures given by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, can we be sure that those assurances have been met?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the 1979 and 2008 Acts were drawn very precisely to cover certain diseases. I am sure that noble Lords know that these range from asbestosis through mesothelioma, relevant silicosis and other illnesses contracted from cotton, clay, and so forth. The Acts that cover these diseases are very precise. Other industrial diseases are covered by the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council, and industrial benefits are based on those diseases.

Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, I will just say that I am afraid I do not agree with my noble friend Lord Tyler on this.

[Noble Lords]

He is not your noble friend.

[Lord Morgan]

Well, sometimes he is—but the view that we heard is historically flawed. The idea that there has been a seamless web since 1671 is quite unsound. As we know, the Parliament Act defined money Bills very precisely. It did so in the spirit of the resolutions of the 1670s. Distinctions were drawn between where the money came from, which was spelt out very clearly, the intended objective and the issues governing its expenditure. It was confirmed in 1911 by the great Prime Minister Mr Asquith that the money Bills provision applied to what he called “all matters of pure finance”. There was agreement across the House that it would not be applied to financial privilege more generally, particularly where issues of social policy were concerned. This is why very often House of Lords amendments had waivers in the House of Commons on many things—including, recently, university tuition fees, the savings gateway and child trust funds, all issues that I discussed myself. The principle that this should now be extended to any implications for public expenditure is far wider than the Parliament Act 1911, and adds a new and unwelcome principle to our unfortunately unwritten constitution.

Remploy

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 5th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, clearly, that is a mixed question from my noble friend. I will look very closely at the optimal way of getting disabled people to take a full part in the economy of this country. I will certainly look very hard at that issue.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords—

[Lord Addington]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords, I have the up-to-date data for the voluntary redundancy programme which took place in 2008. Of the people who chose to look for re-employment, there was a 90 per cent success rate in getting them jobs.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, we have been considering this properly from the point of view of the workers in Remploy. The other side, of course, is the advantages to business and productive industry. I have in mind industries, particularly printing and the industries connected with publishing, where Remploy workers have unique skills. Should we not seek to retain them?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, that is precisely the point. Where there is a viable business proposition we would expect social enterprise or other forms of enterprise to pick up those units, make them viable and keep them viable into the long term on a sustainable basis.