Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Monks and Baroness Verma

Report stage
Monday 21st July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Monks (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hendy for directing our attention to collective bargaining, its historic importance in our national life and its relevance today.

Many in this Chamber today might know that the hero of establishing that collective bargaining system, which has been talked about by others, in 1928 was Stanley Baldwin, who was concerned about the excesses in the boardrooms of Britain. He regarded a lot of directors as profiteers. He promoted collective bargaining and trade unions as an antidote to that kind of greed. We now have another era of excessive boardroom remuneration and, in the absence of strong collective bargaining, too many boards do not seem restrained at all by the possible reaction of their workforce—and, boy, do they take advantage. More collective bargaining would help check this greed.

A start has been made. I will not go into the technicalities, but a start is made in the Bill’s provisions on fair pay agreements, including in the social care and school support staff sectors. We need a major step-up in British employment relations. We need a new system to improve productivity, investment and training. We need a new system based not on short-termism but on respect and investment in skills and capital. We need a new system which puts “them and us” behind us and bases itself on priorities, consultation and more equality.

Once this Bill—which does rebalance relations in this country to a considerable extent—is put to bed I ask the Government to go further and build an ambitious system which raises the national game. We can all do better in this country.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, in response to the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, I want to explore the fact that we currently have strong representation from the unions. We have seen, through recent strikes, that there is an ability to go out there and voice your opinion.

My worry—I would like to have this recorded—as a businessperson, as my registered interests lay out, is that most of the businesses impacted will be SMEs, which are already predominantly very good employers. Most small and medium-sized businesses work with their workforce. We all wish to do well because we want better productivity, and it is not in our interests not to do so.

I remind noble Lords that my own grandfather was one of the founders of the Indian Workers’ Association because, at that time, unions were not properly representing minority communities. My worry is that we are going to go back to a place where people from minority communities, who do not actually know whether they have a choice to be part of a union or not, will have to come back into a union—whether or not they know that they are a member. I want to know from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, how that would be clarified. There will be many from minority communities who work incredibly hard, are ambitious and aspirational, and want to end up owning their own business, who find that working and learning from employers is the best way to do it.

I fully support my noble friend’s amendment because I think that the world has moved on so much. Technology has enabled us to do so many things differently so that we are far more able to hold employers to account. There is no place to hide for bad employers. I do not think that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, will actually make a lot of difference to today’s workforce, as we are using a lot of new technologies to be able to make sure that the workplace is a much fairer place.

Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Monks and Baroness Verma

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Monks (Lab)]

Oh, he has already done it—very good.

Let us be real about this. A lot of situations call for tact and diplomacy, and for us to be careful about the way we express difficult thing. A lot of people do not do that; they say what they like, thinking it is totally justified, and they get into difficulty. Unions spend a lot of time helping people get round those kinds of situations when they have got into trouble with their employer.

I do not think the argument coming from the other side of the Chamber is a convincing one. Let us remember a bit of common sense, and that tact and diplomacy are still required in many organisations, not just the BBC—and not just with my old dad, who did not like the fact that I had a “Vote Labour” poster in the window.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, I did not want to intervene on this group, but, listening to the noble Lord, I became slightly worried that we are getting into censorship. This country is a proud country because of its ability to speak out and speak up. I would be incredibly nervous if we felt that we could not demonstrate our political views openly without being penalised for it. The unions do their own work, but it is incredibly important that people are able to demonstrate a political affiliation or a particular viewpoint without having to feel that they are going to be censored. That would really worry people like me, who often are the recipient of things that we do not like to hear, but we tolerate it because we think the country enables us to have the debate.