Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Mendelsohn and Lord Cope of Berkeley
Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, there are two amendments in this group. As the noble Lord has just explained, the first is about a persistent offender or repeated complaints, and it proposes a fine. The way that the fine is introduced is very unusual in comparison with most times when we introduce a fine into statute. I do not so much complain about that—it is perhaps a drafting matter—but there it is.
Amendment 15 would give very wide powers to the Secretary of State, on the advice of the commissioner, to make an enormous number of very complicated regulations—also leading, incidentally, to a fine if they are not complied with. That is the wrong thing to do, certainly at this point in the development of the Small Business Commissioner role. As we said earlier, he or she should focus on the issue of late payment, and introducing all this machinery changes the nature of what is happening. I do not support Amendment 15 in particular.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, we support the thrust of the argument presented by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that it is very important to put some significant measures behind the attempt to arrest late payments. We are supportive of the Small Business Commissioner trying to do something, but we are realistic that the evidence and pattern demonstrate that it will insufficient.
I will identify one particular aspect. I am grateful that the Minister wrote to me about late payment data—a matter that we discussed in Committee. Late payments are already defined in law, and that definition has been largely in force since the introduction of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Regulations 2013, which amended the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. This establishes that, where a public authority purchases goods or services, statutory interest—the determination that there is a late payment—will start to run on an outstanding payment from 30 days after the supplier’s invoice is received. For other organisations and businesses where a payment period has not been agreed, statutory interest will start to run on outstanding payments from 30 days after the supplier’s invoice is received. Where a payment period is specified in the contract, statutory interest will start to run from that date. However, if the agreed payment period is more than 60 days after the events listed, the regulations state that statutory interest will begin to run from 60 days.
The important principle is that we have already established in law that, as far as we are concerned, late payment arises, at a maximum, at 60 days in relation to private sector organisations. I say that largely because we have had a variety of data problems regarding the extent of late payments. I am extremely sceptical about the data on which the department is relying—namely, the Bacs data on late payments. The reason I am sceptical is that that body makes it absolutely clear that it considers late payment to be 30 days after the agreed payment date between two parties. Even if you have a payment date of 90 days, Bacs will only consider a period of 30 days after that as being a late payment, so it purposely excludes all those other payments which are technically defined as late payments under the existing law. That is why the Bacs figures always come out as significantly lower than those of any other survey. In fact, over the last three months, the range of late payments is identified as being between £41 billion and £61 billion. Bacs identifies the sum owed to small businesses as £26 billion. I do not think that those figures are reliable. We should deal with the problem that we have defined in law—namely, that a late payment is a late payment after 60 days.
This is an important amendment as it tries to give a sense of the extent of late payments that we have to deal with and the measures that we and noble Lords throughout the House believe are required to arrest that situation. The velocity of the increase in the incidence of this problem continues to rise without any material abatement.
It may be useful to give a real-life example to illustrate whether soft or hard measures are required. In December 2013, Debenhams was roundly condemned when the chief financial officer, Simon Herrick, sent out a so-called “Santa tax” letter to suppliers just eight days before Christmas imposing a unilateral 2.5% cut on their prices. At the time, analysts saw that as a last-minute attempt to boost falling profit margins. In January 2014, the store chain issued a profit warning, following a disastrous Christmas trading period, and the CFO resigned. He had previously come under fire in October, when Debenhams’ half-year results revealed that it had spent an astonishing sum moving its headquarters to a very opulent site in Regent’s Place, Euston. Analysts and investors said that the scale of these costs had not been flagged and that the £25 million refurbishment of the Oxford Street store was completed just in time for Christmas but had caused considerable disruption to trading.
Over the intervening period there have been complaints about the continued extension of Debenhams’ payment terms. It was a real concern to read that the Federation of Small Businesses rightly criticised Debenhams after it emerged that the department store chain was asking for discounts in return for making earlier payments. In fact, Debenhams insists on a reduction of nearly 2% in suppliers’ prices in exchange for making payments 30 to 60 days earlier. That gives noble Lords some idea of the extent of its current policy on payment terms. This is the second time in three years that the retailer has unilaterally proposed changes to suppliers’ payments in the run-up to Christmas.
I was very interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, say that PR and publicity drive culture change which changes behaviour. I do not think there has been a company more in the headlines for its poor practices on changing suppliers’ prices than Debenhams but that has not changed that company’s behaviour one bit. It has done exactly the same thing again. I am a student of some great public relations practitioners. Indeed, we have such a practitioner in this House in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Bell. He has always made the great point that good PR is always founded on substance. That has a strong part to play in the issue we are discussing. Clear adherence to regulation will determine whether or not change will happen. It will not be determined by whether or not companies can withstand a bit of poor publicity. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, referred to the glare of warm publicity surrounding Lidl’s decision to pay its staff the living wage and said that that demonstrates that all is well. I would be interested to hear whether she knows the payment date terms that Lidl applies. They are extremely long. In fact, Lidl has been roundly criticised for them. Clearly, one bit of glaring positive publicity does not obviate or change the culture of the company.
It is important to note that the amendment contains a variety of significant powers. In fact, it is a few amendments pushed together into one, as those who attended any of the Grand Committee sessions will know. We have done this to make the point in a number of ways that we are failing to address some of the most serious principal issues, the first being that, despite there being a clear law that allows people to charge interest, they do not do it for fear of retribution. Despite having clear rules about payment terms, people still do not adhere to them because they can get away with it by unilaterally determining a payment term. Even when companies extend payment terms to, for example, 120 days, as many do, they will not be able to charge interest for fear of retribution.
We also have a huge concern about the variety of ways in which companies add terms, unilaterally change terms and create the sorts of commercial arrangements that penalise small businesses, because they can get away with it. Be it marketing charges or warehousing costs, a variety of methods are used to reduce the amount outstanding to a smaller business. All those sorts of matters act as a massive impediment to the growth and development of small businesses. Frankly, even if it is not about growth but about justice for someone trying to run a small business and having to make sure that they do not suffer the terrible consequences of trying to borrow on credit cards—as far too many do, and they suffer enormous costs for doing so—when a large supplier fails to live up to its side of the bargain and the small business has limited options with which to address it, these are the matters that we need to address. It is the sheer size of the problem that we have to address, and there are a number of ways in which this can be done.
Our amendment suggests that the Small Business Commissioner can play a useful role, although not the only role. We also support measures in their own right to try to ensure that it is the obligation of the larger company—or indeed anyone who owes money—to pay it and not to have to be chased. In our view, it is not going to be a question of whether, in dealing with 500 cases and having a very active press officer, the Small Business Commissioner will be able to make a dent in £40 billion, £50 billion or £60 billion-worth of late payments. He or she has to be able to make sure that we build a culture whereby if you are meant to pay, you pay.
Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Mendelsohn and Lord Cope of Berkeley(9 years, 1 month ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con)
My Lords, I disagree with the last point the noble Lord made. If the Government wish to propose an amendment of this kind, the Committee stage is exactly the right place to do it. That is where it can be discussed in detail and at length. If it were not introduced until Report, I think that people would complain about that and about the more restricted nature of the debate that would take place. Therefore, I do not think that my noble friend the Minister should apologise for introducing it in Committee. On the contrary, she should be congratulated on that.
Lord Mendelsohn (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I have a corporate finance business. We have not commercially done any work in this sector, although we informally provided some advice on this area.
I welcome the discussion and the introduction of this amendment. I will preface my comments by saying that we on this side take a very questioning view of these provisions in Grand Committee, and we are more than happy to adapt our view to explanations that are forthcoming. We may take a different view on Report, but we have far more questions now than we are comfortable with as regards this provision. I thought that the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, was very good, and I share a lot of the reservations that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, just expressed.
I will give a sense of where we are coming from on this. Our overall concern at this stage is that this is all tactics and no strategy. Our query is whether there is a strategy, but this tactic does not tell us what it is. Our concern is that as a tactic in and of itself it is probably incorrect. We understand the Government’s stated objectives, which are that they want to grow the business and make it possible to take on a wider range of sectors, to have a multiplying impact on mobilising investments and to encourage private sector enterprises to get the green investment tide rolling. Of course, nothing makes that happen more effectively than beneficial public policy, and I am not sure that we have had a great deal of that or that it is encouraged in a lot of the areas that the Government had previously wished to encourage, but that is another matter that I may return to later.
There is also no doubt that the Green Investment Bank has indeed had some successes. I will also state that its structure, the recruitment of the staff and many of the aspects of the operation that exist are to be commended. It is a good team and a good group of people, and they have played a very good role in triggering great attention and focus, trying to lever investment and interest in green investment. The costs of the bank are not inconsiderable; I think the run rate is now probably something in the region of around £30 million, which is covered by a grant from the Government. That will soon fall on its operating budget, which does not currently exist, although with the establishment of its most recent fund it now has some management fees to be able to offset that.
However, we take a different view about the green investment market, and the notion that things are all hunky-dory and that things have completely changed is patently not the case. It is absolutely clear that the green funds are underperformers, and it is certainly true that a number of green investments have vanished; the participation of an institution such as the Green Investment Bank has provided reassurance and time for investment professionals to be able to work out a number of the details which other commercial organisations do not have the time or ability to do. It is also true that the investments are quite hard to sell and that in many cases the funds will end up being recurring revenue streams and will be sold on that basis. It is also true that the price of oil is still low, having tumbled, which means that exploration becomes less economic, reducing supply and increasing the problems with the viability of renewable markets. Indeed, fairly recently Jan-Willem Bode, the director of one of the largest green energy organisations in the UK, said that many shareholders,
“feel like pulling the plug right now because it is just too much negativity thrown at the sector”.
That was in relation to the Government’s approach to green subsidies. Dwindling demand and low supply in the energy market have not boded well for a floundering alternative in the energy investment market. It is therefore not entirely accurate to take the view that everything is absolutely fine.
I believe that the bank has had a tremendous success most recently with its most recent subsidiary, the Green Investment Bank financial services fund, which is focused on offshore wind. I want to make the point that offshore wind is in a different category—it has a totally commercially viable fund capacity. The new generation of offshore wind equipment is larger and much more efficient and is something the market can already take up. I do not want to undermine the success of the bank; it is good that it did it, but that success is not an exemplar, nor does it prove a variety of other things. In fact, it is the exception which, in many ways, proves the rule.
The key to the Government’s argument is that this is a technical amendment needed to satisfy the Office for National Statistics. In another place, there was recently a debate on this and there was assurance that this amendment does not change or alter the objectives of the Bill, or even close in the articles for assisting in other green projects. There was assurance that these objectives will remain and that the bank will be fully committed to them. Our analysis is that this is clearly not the case.
Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Mendelsohn and Lord Cope of Berkeley
Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, at Second Reading I referred to this question of public authorities. I repeat my view that it would be helpful if public authorities were included as well as larger businesses. I understand some of the reluctance from my noble friend and the Government to include public authorities in this, because there are other arrangements to which people or businesses can go to complain and get mediation in disputes with local authorities. However, the powers of the Small Business Commissioner as set out in the Bill are, for example, to give “general advice and information” on these questions. In doing that, why should not the Small Business Commissioner also be able to provide general advice and information to small businesses about how to go about dealing with a local authority that is not paying them promptly? That is what this is about.
Of course, there is another angle to Amendment 2. The noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, would not only include public authorities here but also omit the words,
“relating to payment matters in connection with the supply of goods”.
The noble Lord’s amendment would widen very considerably the amount of complaints that the Small Business Commissioner might get and I am less sympathetic to that element of it. I accept the argument that my noble friend made about focusing the efforts of the Small Business Commissioner. In time, once the commissioner’s office is established and working well, it might be right to suggest increasing the elements of business relationships that the Small Business Commissioner was able to look into, but let them start off with what has been one of the most perennial problems I can recall for at least 40 years, where there have been political complaints about late payment, the problems of small businesses and so on.
We all know why there is this problem; it is because of the cash-flow pressures on larger and smaller businesses. It has been such a difficult problem that, to my knowledge, all successive Governments over the past 40 years have looked at and tried to deal with it, including me when I was a small firms Minister in Margaret Thatcher’s Government. Frankly, none of the solutions proposed has really been very successful. That is why I am happy for the Small Business Commissioner to concentrate, at least in the first instance, on this particular issue. I do not support that element of the noble Lord’s amendment.
While I am on my feet, I apologise to the Committee but I will have to leave before long because I am a member of the House Committee and we are having our first ever joint meeting with the House of Commons Commission at five o’clock, which I should attend in spite of attractions in other parts of the building. I wanted to make that point to reinforce what I said at Second Reading.
Lord Mendelsohn
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, on his presentation of this amendment and the basket of amendments that it covers. It had strong support from the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and for exactly the right reasons. That is very powerful.
To try and encapsulate this, these amendments are about a couple of very obvious things. First, the brief is too selective because there are organisations outside the terms currently drawn in the Bill but for which the flow of late payments or other matters become an issue. Secondly, the issue of the public sector is an incredibly obvious one.
Two angles to this issue are hugely relevant: the issue around payments and the business environment. They are connected and relate also to the Small Business Commissioner as late payments are rarely about just the egregious actions of a particular company. As the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, said, in many cases very difficult issues arise with cash flow. These will rarely be solved by treating this matter as just a singular dispute between two parties. You have to consider the wider impacts on the business environment and the fact that late payment can be remedied only by taking a wider view and taking into account the capacity of the Small Business Commissioner to act in relation to the business environment in general.
If there is a problem with cash flow, you can shout at the businesses for as long as you like, but it means that one and possibly both are struggling. All of a sudden, if you tilt the balance too much one way, it may lead to one of the businesses closing down. The Small Business Commissioner is meant to be an agent who can create the right solutions. The Australian model has evolved great skill in creating what is called in Australia “commercially realistic solutions” rather than just determining right and wrong. Its great attribute is its credibility and authority and the scope of who it can deal with, not just its focus. If you deal with late payments just in terms of the circumstances of the two parties, you miss the point about the ongoing cash flow. Whether it is a case of large company contracts or small company contracts, a dispute between two parties is part of the problem.
Amendments 13 and 18 address the fact that 70% of small business trade is with other small businesses. Satago is a fantastic company with terrifically rich data. However, it highlighted the fact that under the Bill it is very hard for small businesses to come forward with some of the complaints we are discussing. Our amendments would help to ensure that whether it is a case of small businesses, large businesses or the public sector, the Small Business Commissioner cannot just deal with payment problems but can also take a wider view of the business environment. As I say, this is not just about disputes between two parties but about making sure that the overarching view is the right one.
Government regulation of small businesses should focus on addressing information balance and creating fair competition. While small business legislation should protect small and medium-sized businesses, the net outcome should be an enhanced competitive and fair operating environment for all business. Government involvement in small business matters should aim at ensuring that both prospective and ongoing small businesses have sufficient knowledge to make informed business decisions. While any business has a fundamental right of control over positioning and maximising its business opportunities, this right does not extend to engaging in unfair business practices. Small business should be able to access a low-cost informal dispute resolution forum prior to any grievances proceeding to formal litigation. These things are crucially important.
The business environment covers everything from where you get credit, which terms you establish, to how the logistics support the delivery of goods. All those things are relevant to late payment. If you want to deliver with a practical solution, sometimes you can mediate between two parties. However, sometimes the Small Business Commissioner needs to draw on the experience of others. These amendments are not just about the disputes mentioned by other noble Lords and dealing directly with certain problems; they deal with payment matters in general rather than just specific payment disputes. These things are important even as regards how you design a procurement process and the flow of money that comes from it, as this can sometimes be part of the problem. We should allow the Small Business Commissioner to draw on wider experience to promote an environment where late payments are less likely to occur.
Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, incidentally, the other meeting I was due to attend did not raise a quorum.
Nobody has so far spoken in support of Amendment 8 so it is perhaps unnecessary for me to speak against it. However, it has been formally moved. I think that inserting a duty or giving a duty to the commissioner that she or he should publish information about,
“tax rates, allowances and thresholds of relevance to small business”
would introduce a major distraction into the commissioner’s role. It is the duty of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs to publish the allowances, rates and everything else, and it does so with considerable vigour on its websites. There are large numbers of people, including people in the profession in which I qualified, although I have not practised for many years—namely, chartered accountancy—who do this kind of thing. If the commissioner finds himself or herself with a legal duty written into the Bill to publish this kind of information, I fear that it will be a major distraction from what we all want to see as the commissioner’s initial role, at any rate; that is, to deal with the late payment issues.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, I support these amendments and will say a few words about Amendment 8, to address the comments made on it by the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. Fortunately, the noble Lord is able to be present as the other meeting he was due to attend did not gain a quorum.
I pay tribute to the fantastic work of my noble friend Lord Mitchell on payday lenders. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson: this is not about the visible and invisible parts of an iceberg but about the devil and the deep blue sea. The problem is that the choice we are making is between two things that are broadly unacceptable. It was only through the great efforts of my noble friend Lord Mitchell that we understood that Wonga, which has completely changed its business model, operated in a market based on pushing people into failure to pay, rapidly increasing their debt burden over time and charging effectively a permanent rate of interest. That was its business model—to force people into continued and prolonged debt. To my noble friend’s great credit, Wonga has changed that model as it could not continue to function with it. This is relevant to the Small Business Commissioner as we should not accept the principle of choosing between one thing which is bad and another thing which is really bad. His job is to find an alternative. We all know that there are problems with people accessing finance and with debt and with our banking sector. The answer is not to say that it could get a whole lot worse but to enable someone to act as an agent or agency and make a difference. That is why I think this is a very sensible amendment.
Some years ago when I operated a small business, we had a tax issue and a little tête-à-tête with Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs. There was a particular issue that we contested. Rather than pay—forgive me for saying this—the fees our accountants would charge to deal with this, we thought we would do it on our own. We had a particularly effective financial controller and he spent a considerable amount of time trying to research this. In fact, we funded him to go on a day’s seminar given by HMRC to look at the particular issue. He attended the seminar and came back with a series of materials that gave very clear advice on the problem. Subsequently, we wrote to HMRC saying that this was our case, completely consistent with its advice. It wrote back saying that it did not accept our arguments. We wrote to it saying that we could not claim the letter we had written was entirely our authorship but was based on advice we now enclosed, which came from HMRC. We got a letter back saying, “We are not bound by our own advice”.
That was a few years ago but I raise the point because it is relevant. Our experience in talking to small businesses in particular but also to some of the representative organisations is that their complaint is not that they must pay tax. There are some who do not like to pay tax—many of those live in Monaco and other sorts of places, but they are not the ones I am so concerned about here. For those who are concerned about paying tax, it is about paying the right tax and understanding the taxes that they must pay. In the same way, it is about not regulation per se but the burdens of regulation. These amendments address this question. They say that the Small Business Commissioner should be able to deal with those issues.
I accept that we have a particularly narrow focus for the commissioner, and it is what the prime focus should be. However, in that wonderful nirvana where the commissioner can extend its role, it would not be a bad thing to be able to assist small businesses to have a better understanding of and some degree of certainty about the issues that they must face and the taxes they must pay, as well as being able to make observations to others to be clearer so that there is better compliance and understanding of what these things are. I fear this constant sense that there is a huge amount of non-payment and total avoidance, and all sorts of scandals and terrible practices by business. Invariably, especially with small businesses, they are not fully aware of what they must do. These amendments allow a Small Business Commissioner to play a very effective role in that area.
Finally, on Amendment 47, I declare an interest as an investor using the EIS benefit. I hope that that does not become a tax problem and the Revenue starts to chase me on it. I am fairly confident at this stage that I am on the right side. I agree that the EIS is exceptionally useful and many small businesses know about it. We have somewhat cheekily tried to extend the EIS relief beyond individual investors to institutional investors. We put that as a role for the Small Business Commissioner in order to probe the Government about whether the commissioner could also play a useful role in how we grow small businesses, being able to make observations about how some of the government schemes that currently exist could be used further.