Geo-Blocking Regulation (Revocation) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Howarth of Newport
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, as this is the last item of business it would be very easy to nod it through. However, in the debate on the previous SI, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, made the point that this House is playing a very important part in what he described as the Alice in Wonderland situation of Parliament legislating on Monday to prevent a no-deal Brexit, and then on Tuesday legislating to avoid the worst consequences of a no-deal Brexit. It is important that these statutory instruments are probed. They may seem to be simply belt-and-braces exercises, and the Minister delivers her arguments with such an upbeat lilt that you think there cannot be any problems, but it is worth probing a little deeper and showing the absolute absurdity and danger of what is proposed.
Let us remember that this is part of a great creation of the European Union: the single market and its operation. That single-market concept was the great work of Lord Cockfield, actively supported by Mrs Thatcher, in the 1980s. It was one of the great pieces in the puzzle of creating the European Union. Yet, as the Minister explained in her positive manner, no benefits are forthcoming from this SI—or from any of them. We are doing an exercise in damage limitation.
The Minister clearly explained what geo-blocking means. It is,
“the term used to describe traders discriminating against customers on the basis of the nationality or location of the customer”.
That is the very heart of the single market. She was fair in frankly pointing out—as did the Minister in the other place, Kelly Tolhurst—that, so far as the consumer is concerned, by leaving the European Union we move out of the protections which this legislation provided, and that:
“UK businesses operating in EU markets will still have to comply with the EU regulation when dealing with EU consumers … A failure to revoke the geo-blocking regulation and the Geo-Blocking (Enforcement) Regulations 2018 would not preserve UK customers’ consumer rights. Those rights will in effect be lost if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. The only effect would be to continue to impose obligations on UK traders while providing no benefit to UK customers”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/4/19; col. 977.]
It is lose, lose, lose. In short, EU traders would not have any obligations to treat UK customers in line with the geo-blocking regulation.
As the Minister also explained, this regulation does not require a company to deliver a physical product to all EU locations. It also exempts digital copyrighted content, including e-books, computer games and streaming services such as Netflix, and audio-visual content and transport services. However, the EU is obliged to assess whether to lift these exemptions in 2020. This is a perfect example of the lunacy of Brexit. We are moving into a data revolution—an age of e-commerce. Yet we are now stepping back; we will not be at the table when the EU sets the standards in these areas. We will again be left, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, rightly put in another context, waiting, watching and listening for what others decide.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
I got the impression that we were, in important respects, setting the standards for legislation in relation to data issues—for example, the duty of care that has just been proposed by the Government. Does the noble Lord not agree that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander? EU traders wanting to do business in the UK following Brexit will have to obey our laws, just as we have to obey their laws when trading within the EU, so there is actually a reciprocal balance here.
Lord McNally
I have heard the noble Lord intervene time and again over the last year about this reciprocity—I am getting like President Trump in my pronunciation. We are talking about a market of 70 million and a market of 500 million. One of the things that was said in 2016 was that they need us as much as we need them. Oh, do they? How pathetic. Something I used to say when I worked in public relations, talking to big companies, is that it takes years and decades to build a reputation and you can lose a reputation in an instant. We built 700 years of competent parliamentary democracy and we have lost it in two years of madness, mostly egged on by people such as the noble Lord, who has this strange idea that the rest of the world is just waiting to co-operate with our wisdoms. I think I might have provoked him, but I do not know.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, I begin by refuting what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said about himself. There can be no comparison between him and the President of the United States; it may be that neither of them knows how to pronounce reciprocity, but the President would not know what it meant either. Let it be said also that the little exchange between my noble friend Lord Howarth and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is indicative of where our manner of conducting these discussions has got us. Two people, for whom I have respect—and, indeed, affection—are capable of having a real bout of reciprocal hostility, if not animosity—
Lord Howarth of Newport
I have absolutely no hostility towards the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I am very fond of him; please correct the record.