Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Lord Storey
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, we are fully committed to openness and transparency in the proceedings of local government and have already moved amendments to that effect. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said, we need to be sure that nothing in or arising from the Bill could dilute or disapply existing public rights of access to meetings, records and related documents. The noble Lord has also posed a pertinent question on Schedule 3.
There may be a lack of clarity over the precise circumstances envisaged in subsection (1)(b) of Amendment 42A concerning,
“leaders of a combined authority”.
Presumably, the provision applies when they are meeting as members of that combined authority rather than otherwise. Perhaps that needs clarification. We have generally argued for dealing with matters on the face of the Bill, so we look forward to assurances from the Minister that the issues raised here are already covered. To the extent that they are not, we will work with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, to fill any gaps on Report.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, this amendment is in my name as well. Yes, it is important to have powerful leadership in metropolitan areas, and yes, it is important that we have transparency. In my own local authority in Liverpool, the elected mayor, in his infinite wisdom, has decided to do away with scrutiny, so there are no scrutiny committees at all. That should not happen in this case, so it is very important to clearly make the point that not only should there be transparency in all actions under the new arrangements but, where papers are relevant, the papers should be freely available to the general public—to the electors—and, where possible, those electors should be allowed to attend those meetings if they wish. If we do that it will give people real confidence about the new arrangements. They will feel that the arrangements are transparent and democratic and, above all, that nothing is being hidden from them behind closed doors.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Lord Storey
Lord Storey (LD)
We have heard wise words from my noble friend Lord Shipley and the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. I am very nervous of combined authorities setting up independent panels. I am nervous of their make-up. Who is going to decide their members? We are going to see differences between different combined authorities in different parts of the country. If we are going to have leadership of these combined authorities, we have to make sure that nobody feels that they cannot go forward because they are financially restrained.
I vividly remember becoming leader of Liverpool and the remuneration being considerably less than I was receiving in my professional job. I could not afford to do the job full-time because of that, so I worked in my professional job and did three days, two days, two days, three days, and it was absolutely killing. It was not the right way to lead a city. Just so nobody complains, any proportion of my leader’s allowance I gave to charity, so I was not making anything on the deal. However, that should not be the case. We should make sure that we have some mechanism, and the solution from my noble friend Lord Shipley and the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is the way forward.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, this has been an interesting short debate. Our starting point is to favour the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh for there to be an independent panel. I accept that there are issues. The noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Heseltine, made points about making sure that it is truly independent, and there is no reason why that independence could not take account of international experience as well. A potential issue about the linkage is that the role of the mayor will not necessarily be constant and homogenous between different authorities. Sometimes the function of the mayor might be the full Monty, as it were, but sometimes it might be much less so. Therefore, we are going to have to have some form of assessment if we are going to do that fairly. It is reasonable for there to be further thinking around this.
Linking pay to the pay of the highest-paid leader of a constituent council could be a route, although in a sense what this amendment says is, “The Secretary of State decides but it must be no larger than”. That seems to put the onus back on the Secretary of State, so the principle we would support is some independent assessment, taking account of the real value of the job. I entirely accept that this would be a very powerful and important job.