Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Monday 25th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

In listening to this debate, I find myself sympathetic to the notion of social mobility but I also think of the play “Macbeth” and of Macbeth and his wife. There is a risk, I suppose, if one puts too much weight on social mobility, of a society which is red in tooth and claw. The addition of the words “Life Chances” balances that. Your Lordships may also remember the series “Seven Up!”, which I think started in the 1970s and followed 10 children through their lives into adulthood. To my mind, the happiest life in the group was that of a young black boy who grew up in foster care and then went on to become a butcher, marry and have a family. He seemed the most contented of the lot. To be able to achieve a stable and loving family is also important to society, so it would also be helpful to measure that.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, this amendment has been moved very comprehensively by my noble friend Lady Lister and spoken to by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, to whom I should say that the closest I got to Oxford on Sunday night was watching “Endeavour” on television. This is a re-run of an amendment moved in Committee as part of a wider group covering life-chances strategies. The Minister’s response then, as reported in col. 1598 of Hansard on 9 December 2015, was clear on a commitment to publish a life-chances strategy, as well as the annual report as set out in the Clause 4 obligations, but there was no commitment to make this a statutory obligation. As my noble friend Lady Lister has argued, the concern which has been expressed about the commission is that, for the future, it has no obligation explicitly to promote the tackling of child poverty. Although there is a commitment to report on life-chances data, and a statement on the record that there will be a life-chances strategy, the role of the Social Mobility Commission seems somewhat removed from this.

As my noble friend Lady Lister pointed out in Committee, promoting social mobility is a narrower ambition than tackling poverty and promoting life chances: it is not a substitute. It is, of course, a not unreasonable ambition, but a commission focused on life chances would naturally encompass the prospects of social mobility. The reverse is not the case. We therefore support my noble friend’s amendment. It seems odd that the Government are keen to have a commission reporting on progress on improving social mobility but not on life chances.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, Amendment 105 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sherlock. We are pleased to note that it has the support of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor. The amendment calls for the Secretary of State to come forward with a plan to address the impact of lower social rents on housing associations and local authorities within 12 months of the rent reduction provisions coming into effect. It mirrors a debate which took place in Committee in the other place and follows on from much of what we have just debated.

The rent reductions amount to some £3.5 billion by 2020 for housing associations and are estimated by the Local Government Association to amount to some £2.6 billion for local authorities by that date. However, their impact will of course extend beyond 2020 because even if CPI plus 1% is restored after four years, it will be applied to a lower base than would otherwise be the case. LGA figures show that the rental loss for local authorities is equivalent to 60% of the total housing maintenance budget each year or 19,000 new homes over four years. London Councils points to a loss of rental income for London of £800 million up to 2020, but also, the cumulative impact looking across the 30-year business plan, assuming rents at CPI plus 1% after 4 years, is £13.3 billion.

The Government recognise that these reductions will have an impact on the finances of housing associations and local authorities but effectively say—we have heard it again tonight—that these can be managed. This amendment seeks clarification of how the Government think this can be accomplished. Effectively, it restates the question posed by my noble friend Lady Blackstone. Various estimates have been made of the loss of rental accommodation which might ensue, and it is recognised that this will obviously be influenced by what exceptions and exemptions are to be made available. We will come on to these in following groups. The National Housing Federation estimates that 27,000 fewer homes will be built over the next four years, although the OBR has different figures.

The Government have cited a number of factors in support of their view that everything is going to be all right. These include the accumulated surpluses of housing associations and HRA reserves, the latter totalling some £2.2 billion. They also point to the prospect of higher rents arising from social tenants with a household income of £30,000 to £40,000, which the impact assessment suggests could produce,

“hundreds of millions [of] pounds per year”.

Can the Minister give us a breakdown of this estimate, saying how much relates to London and how much to outside London, how many households are likely to be affected and what level of rent is expected to be levied and garnered from this process? Is it correct that the rent standard does not currently apply to rental accommodation where household income is £60,000 or more? Presumably this will have to be adjusted.

As for the reserves of local authorities and housing associations, the Government should be wary of making judgments by looking at the aggregate position. London Councils, for example, cites a loss of rental income of £800 million but reserves of stock-holding boroughs of only £700 million. There is an assumption that reserves can be used effectively without cost. What guidance, if any, is given to housing associations and local authorities generally about maintaining prudent reserves?

If the Secretary of State were to publish a document under Clause 23(12) about measures a local authority might take to avoid financial difficulties, what would his approach be in considering the running down of reserves? The impact assessment explains that the regulator is currently collecting information from large providers and requiring a revised financial forecast return reflecting updated policy announcements. Is this exercise complete and what is the outcome? The impact assessment also makes it clear that the Government are continuing to engage with the housing association sector and,

“remains confident that they will be able to find the necessary efficiencies to manage this change”.

Will the Minister please share with us what specific factors underpin this confidence? What is the Government’s current assessment of the shortfall in social housing for rent which they consider will flow from the operation of Clause 21? In addition, what is the estimated impact on housing waiting lists?

We can exchange statistics about the housing performance of this Government and will doubtless hear, among other things, proposals to develop 275,000 affordable homes over the course of this Parliament. If we do, can we be clear on the definition of affordable housing being used, and how many homes will be available for rent? I beg to move.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment. I am very concerned about the rise in child homelessness and the number of homeless families living in insecure accommodation. I am concerned at the possibility that these changes will reduce the supply of housing and contribute to further child homelessness. Will the Minister look at the possible impact on child homelessness of the reduction in rent over the next four years?

I welcome the extra investment, announced yesterday, that the Prime Minister has made in perinatal mental health care so that during and immediately after pregnancy mothers get support if they have mental health issues. I understand that he is doing that because it is increasingly recognised how crucial it is for children to have a good start in life. The noble Lord, Lord Horam, spoke earlier about productivity. I suggest to your Lordships that if we do not do everything possible to give children the best start in life, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot as regards productivity. We know that if they get a good start, they will do well in school and will probably also do well in employment. That is why I particularly support the amendment.

Living in insecure accommodation is also obviously very troubling for children as they may have to move from school to school and may be separated from their friends. I know that, like me, all your Lordships are very concerned about the increasing number of children who are homeless, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, Amendment 110 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sherlock. We welcome the support of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who has added his name to it. The amendment moves us into somewhat different territory. It is about the adequacy of the local housing allowance system and the quarterly review of the extent to which at least 30% of private rented properties in each locality are made affordable by the LHA. It is an opportunity, in particular, to review the effect of the four-year freeze on the LHA.

Whereas the Government have sought in the Bill to ameliorate the costs of housing benefit for social housing by reducing rent levels, their efforts and those of the coalition Government have taken a different approach in the case of the private rented sector. For the PRS, the Government have progressively reduced the level of support provided by the LHA. This started by moving the LHA rate down from the median rent in any given area to the 30th percentile and was followed by national caps on categories of property, limited uprating, initially to 1% a year, and now a four-year freeze. As well as changes to the LHA which effectively substitute for the rent level in any calculation, there have been changes which affect the calculation of housing support itself: the abolition of the family element, the two-child policy and cuts to work allowances, not to mention, where appropriate, the benefit cap. That is happening at the same time as more people are looking to the PRS for housing and rents are increasing.

The private rented sector is growing out of all proportion to the UK’s housing stock, and is expected to comprise more than one-third of the total stock by 2032. This growth has been stimulated in particular by the deregulation efforts in the Housing Act 1988 and the continuing shortfall under successive Governments of new housing provision. Research by Shelter highlighted that a third of renters are now families with children—those most affected by the volatility and uncertainty of the rental market. Nearly three-quarters of families who rent are in work and would overwhelmingly like to own their own home but believe that they will never be able to afford it.

In a release just last week, Shelter set out recent findings of an online survey which showed that 32% of private renters have had to cut back on either heating or winter clothing to meet housing payments and 56% are struggling or falling behind with their rent. An earlier study by Shelter highlighted that more than half of local authorities in England have a median private rent for a two-bedroom home which costs more than 45% of median take-home pay in the area. Eight per cent of authorities have median rents that are 50% or more of median full-time take-home pay. This is before the 1% freeze begins to operate.

The test the amendment sets down is whether 30% of private rented properties in each locality are affordable to people whose housing support is based on the LHA. It implies that the 30% would be the lowest cost, the 30th percentile, because that was the central test considered appropriate before uprating was decoupled from actual rental levels, a change which has been deepened by the LHA freeze which, as we touched on, is to be visited on social rented housing in 2018.

As I said, the extent to which private sector rents are affordable depends on how the broad rental market area operates in practice, as well as the details of the current social security system, but the starting point is the actual level of the allowance, the rent equivalent. There is no doubt that at times of growing demand, inadequate supply and rising rents, a freezing of the LHA is likely to widen the gap between actual costs and the level of housing support.

Indeed, this is already happening, particularly in London, where London Councils recently published an analysis of the likely effect of the freeze which demonstrates that already less than 30% of private rented properties are affordable at the LHA rate. It suggested that only 5% to 10% of properties in some high-value parts of inner London might be affordable and that this could spread more widely around the capital. For 2015-16, a gap is already opening up between LHA rates and the 30th percentile. Based on government figures, in two-thirds of the broad rental market areas the 30th percentile rents for two-bedroom properties, for example, are already above the April 2015 LHA levels.

Does the Minister accept those figures? Unless rents are to come down, this shortfall will only grow. A clear consequence of this is that more and more people will uproot and move to cheaper areas, with all the consequences of that upheaval for families and their communities, both old and new. For some, the benefit cap will further make properties unaffordable, leading inexorably to homelessness and poverty. We cannot allow this to go on. This is a deepening crisis, which the Government need to address. The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, has two amendments in this group. I may respond to them when I wind up. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I am concerned that the Government’s proposal may reduce the supply of housing or cause what housing is available to be of poorer quality. I go back to my earlier concerns about the poorest families. In her response, will the Minister give an assurance that this will not have the effect that I am concerned about, will not make more families homeless and will not lead to poor families living in poorer conditions and less well-maintained homes? I look forward to her response.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Monday 14th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

May I correct something I said earlier? On my visit to the food bank in Tower Hamlets on Friday, the principal reasons given for people coming to food banks were mistakes in benefits and their own lack of knowledge about their entitlements; it was not to do with sanctions brought against them. I have checked my notes and apologise for my mistake.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I speak enthusiastically in support of Amendment 57, moved with her customary precision and passion by my noble friend Lady Lister. I am pleased that it also has the support of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, my noble friend Lord Beecham, and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, with his particular focus on getting these things sorted out before we get fully into universal credit.

The amendment seeks a full and independent review of sanctions attached to working age benefits, with particular reference to their application to lone parents and disabled claimants. The review should also focus on the effectiveness of sanctions in moving claimants into sustained work. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, posed three tests for a review, based on timing, remit and even-handed terminology. I think that we have established that the terminology involved is that which the department itself uses. On timing, the issue here is that the hardship and detriment people are suffering because of the sanctions regime is happening to them now. They do not have the time to wait for a fuller, more extended review. On the remit, I doubt whether my noble friend would have great problems in seeing that expanded. We would be interested to know quite how much further detail the noble Lord wants.

The proposition follows a call from the House of Commons DWP Committee in its March 2015 report, referred to by my noble friend. We know the call has been rejected, but we hope that this debate will help the Government to change their mind. This is of course inextricably linked to conditionality issues, which we debated at some length on Wednesday. We can agree that conditionality has long been a component of social safety nets and needs a system to support compliance. But as the amendment makes clear, as did my noble friend in moving it, the system should be applied appropriately, fairly and proportionately, and with a clear focus on improving sustained employment outcomes. It should not be seen as a substitute for effective support to help individuals back into work.

We support the approach that says that the design and application of sanctions need to be considered alongside conditionality and employment support. The three go together. The coalition Government initiated the Oakley review, although as we have heard it was narrow in its remit. It focused on JSA claimants and back to work programmes, but the number of sanctions overwhelmingly associated with the Work Programme represented only some one-third of the total JSA sanctions in 2013.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Monday 14th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to support the amendment of my noble friends. On a visit to a Centrepoint hostel in Soho several years ago, I spoke with a very young girl—16 or 17 perhaps—and asked her why she was there. She said that her mother had a new boyfriend who did not want her around. The OECD said in its report on family formation that this country will overtake the United States in the 2030s in terms of the numbers of young people growing up without a father in the home. We have to think about the changes in families and about the Children’s Commissioner’s report on the sexual exploitation of children. Most sexual exploitation takes place within the family, from people within the family who the children know. Some 90% of lone parents are going to be women, and if different men are regularly coming into the household, this issue of girls in such households having worries about sexual exploitation or being sexually exploited also has to be considered. I commend the amendment to the Minister.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, as your Lordships have heard, we have added out name to Amendment 60 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, and I cannot think why we did not do likewise for Amendment 62C, which we support and which also has the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, the noble Lord, Lord Best, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel.

The proposition to remove access to the housing element of universal credit for 18 to 21 year-olds from April 2017 has been some time in the making. Its progression—or, more likely, regression—can be tracked from a series of references by the Prime Minister at his party conference. Its original focus was to remove housing benefit for people aged 16 to 24, but this has now been narrowed, as we have heard, to 18 to 21 year-olds for universal credit. There are of course already lower levels of housing benefit allowances for single people under 25 and couples under 18, as well as restrictions under the shared accommodation rate. Can the Minister confirm that the Prime Minister’s desire to have an extended denial of housing benefit or universal credit for 16 to 25 year-olds is now off the agenda? The rationale for the policy has a familiar refrain:

“This will ensure young people in the benefits system face the same choices as young people who work and who may not be able to afford to leave home”.

That is a simplistic view of the choices facing many young people and in any event ignores the fact that housing benefit can be claimed by those in work.

This policy is being introduced at the same time as the new youth obligation for 18 to 21 year-olds on universal credit—the so-called boot camp. As the noble Lord, Lord Low, points out, we are promised that there will be exemptions, and the amendment is probing what might be available. The policy starts from April 2017 for 18 to 21 year-olds who are out of work. Can the Minister confirm specifically that there will be protection for vulnerable claimants, as spelt out by the noble Lord, Lord Low, and that they will definitely include those with recent experience of work, young people living in homeless hostels or domestic violence refugees, care leavers, those with dependent children, those receiving ESA, or its equivalent, or income support and those who cannot live at home?

Like the noble Lord, Lord Low, we are grateful for the briefing provided by Crisis and its insights into the consequences of these proposals should they not be ameliorated—in particular, the consequences for those who are homeless or who have experienced or are at risk of homelessness. Its briefing reminds us that if the protections and exemptions are not sufficient, any savings from this measure will be wiped out by costs elsewhere, mostly from increased homelessness.

The policy has generated a range of criticism, as we have heard. The Chartered Institute of Housing says that it could mean young people being less willing to take risks in moving for work because of the removal of a safety net. Centrepoint says that claiming housing benefit is for many a short-term solution to a situation they find themselves in, providing them with a safety net from which they can get their lives back on track. Shelter opposes the measure because it asserts that,

“every young adult deserves somewhere safe and decent to live”—

and who could disagree with that?

House of Commons briefing paper number No. 06473 of 26 August 2015 refers to the Uncertain Futures paper published by YMCA England. This points out that, of the estimated 3.2 million 18 to 21 year-olds, just over 19,000 young people are currently claiming jobseeker’s allowance and housing benefit, and that 71% of the 18 to 21 year olds who access JSA do so for less than six months. It also points out that 7,200 young care leavers between 19 and 21 years-old in England are currently out of work and would potentially be able to claim JSA and housing benefit and that nearly 1,400 18 to 21 year-olds are currently living in YMCA supported accommodation and claim JSA and housing benefit. It points out, on lifestyle choice and the assertion that people just want to live on the dole, that most young people are entitled to £57.90 a week in JSA—frankly, what we would blow on a meal at the weekend.

YMCA England concludes:

“By removing automatic entitlement to Housing Benefit for 18 to 21 year olds the Government could be in danger of inadvertently taking away support from the young people who need it most and in doing so, exposing many more vulnerable young people to the risk of becoming homeless and therefore damaging their prospects of finding work in the future. Action is needed to address youth unemployment, but without protections thousands of vulnerable young people will face uncertain futures, not knowing if they will have anywhere they can call home and leaving them less able to find work”.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I hesitate to speak because I was not present at the previous part of this debate. However, after listening to today’s debate and reading part of Hansard’s previous report, I am prompted to ask a question. It may have been answered already and, if so, I apologise for doing so. In the sensitive processing of asylum immigrant applications in the immigration system, continuity of contact with the case officer—continuity of the relationship between the person being assessed and their case manager—has been found to be helpful. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what possibilities there are for that continuity of relationship in this context.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lord, this is an important group of amendments which addresses aspects of the assessment process. As we have heard, some of the underlining concerns which the amendments seek to address are drawn from experience of the work capability assessment and the difficulties which this has created for disabled people. They all raise points which deserve our support, although I expect the Minister will say that, at least in part, they can be covered in regulations. To the extent that he does so, I hope the noble Lord will take the opportunity to put clearly on the record how each of these matters will be addressed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, cited WCA examples to emphasise the importance of evidence from the claimant’s healthcare professionals being part of the assessment process, with the obligation on the DWP to organise this. Notwithstanding that we now have a bio-psycho-social model and that the condition or impairment that an individual has may in some cases be of limited value in assessing an individual’s ability to participate in society, this will not always be the case, and there is a clear risk that without it the assessment could be significantly adrift. A process which does not incur the kind of charges which individuals face, to which the noble Baroness, referred, is important.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord German, concerning advocacy is also to be supported. As he acknowledged, the explanatory note to the draft assessment criteria is clear that an individual will be able to bring a friend or advocate to a face-to-face consultation. The implication is that such a person could be there to help with the process and not be just silent company. Indeed, I believe that was confirmed by the Minister in the other place when the matter was raised there. Presumably training for staff will enable assessors to sort out advocates who are trying to lead individuals. Claimants must be entitled to know that there is a right for them to be accompanied.

On Monday, my noble friend Lord Touhig gave a clear example of how this could be important. He raised the example of when someone was asked about a bus journey and gave an answer, which of itself would have been extremely unhelpful and misleading to the assessment process. Having an advocate there to help with that explanation would have been hugely important.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, is a consistent advocate for those with autism and I have no doubt that his plea that those undertaking assessments should be properly trained in mental, intellectual and cognitive disorders will be supported by the Minister. Can the Minister confirm that this will be the case for decision-makers? Perhaps he can also say what is the planned position in respect of access to specialists, which is another key component of the noble Lord’s amendment.

It is understood that the department has recently begun a tendering exercise for the assessments to be undertaken by a third-party supplier. Will the Minister say what specifically is being sought in respect of access to this type of expertise? Presumably, the specification has been developed at this stage. Therefore, can he also tell us what that specification indicates in respect of the numbers, the likely volume of face-to-face assessments and the numbers of likely exceptions to those face-to-face assessments? Perhaps he can also say something about the overall numbers. When this issue was debated in another place, reference was made to the prospect of some of the assessments being able to be undertaken at home—a more comforting and aware environment for some claimants. Perhaps the Minister can update us on this and also say how it is being dealt with in the specification.

We had a number of detailed and knowledgeable explanations from those concerned with autism, including from my noble friends Lord Touhig and Lady Healy and again, this afternoon, from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. Their amendments seek relief from face-to-face assessment in certain circumstances where there is sufficient medical and other evidence on which to base a clear judgment. The challenges which face-to-face interviews can present for individuals with an autism spectrum condition were graphically described by my noble friend Lady Healy. She said that it is not just the nervousness or anxiety that is experienced at the approach of a difficult event, but dread and terror. The Minister demonstrated sympathy with this point of view at Second Reading. We hope that these amendments will enable him to say a little more in support of that proposition.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, briefly, I join in the request for the Minister to think very carefully about these matters. I have been moved by the speeches on this amendment. Reference was made to children leaving care, which certainly resonated with me. We know that disabled children are greatly overrepresented among children in care. We know that the transition from care is very difficult for many children without disabilities, so those with disabilities may be doubly disadvantaged as they make that transition into adulthood. Furthermore, we also know that for children with disabilities, in the general run, the turnover of social workers and many disturbances mean that the transition to adulthood and adult services is often very problematic. There are many good reasons why this amendment should be given careful consideration. I look forward to what I hope will be a sympathetic response from the Minister.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, on this occasion I am happy to be at one with my noble friend Lady Lister and the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I am not sure that I am happy to be reminded about being assailed from the left by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale; I try to put those memories far behind me. These are two important amendments and I hope that the Government will consider them seriously and take them on board. As my honourable friend Stephen Timms said in another place, it is,

“very hard to understand the Government’s justification for abolishing ESA for those people”.—[Official Report, Commons, Welfare Reform Bill Committee, 3/5/11; col. 645.]

He said that it is a measure that seems “unreasonably punitive”. I agree.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will be keen to reassure the Committee about the concerns raised, and I know that the Committee will want to hear those reassurances, so I shall be as brief as I can, but I am prompted by the eloquent speeches of the noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter—particularly the case histories that she presented—to think in particular of large sibling groups of children taken into care. We are often talking about large families, dysfunctional families, where the parent has a child who is taken away, then another child who is taken away and then another child who is taken away. It is often very important for those children that they stay together with their brothers and sisters. Of course that means that some foster carers need to have many rooms to provide that capacity. In the past, we have failed those children. It has been inconvenient to keep them together, so they have been separated.

I think of one now middle-aged woman who was separated from her five brothers and sisters when she was in care. She was so profoundly troubled by her experience that she set up a charity, Siblings Together, and now organises holiday schemes so that young children in care can spend at least their holidays together with their siblings. If they lose their parents, at least let them keep their brothers and sisters.

I do not want to pull too hard on the heartstrings, and I know that the Minister has met the Fostering Network. He has already provided reassurance on several of its concerns, so I am sure that he will be as helpful as he can on this issue as well, but I omitted to raise this earlier and I wanted to raise it with him before he replied.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, it is with some trepidation that I speak in this debate having released, in the terms of the noble Lord, Lord Best, the battery of Baronesses from this side of the Committee. I am not sure that I am not better suited to sitting on the hill at a safe distance and watching all this from afar.

However, these are hugely important issues. One thing seems abundantly clear on the basis of this debate and the previous one: what is in the Bill simply cannot stand. We recognise the issue of underoccupation. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, said, part of that is dealt with by definition: the extra bedroom in itself is part of the solution. My noble friend Lord Whitty just made a powerful contribution about the need to look at this in the context of housing policy more generally: the provision of a range of new accommodation and the range of tenancies that we have. To use the mechanism of housing benefit as the sole lever to try to deal with the problem seems fundamentally flawed.

There seems to be an assumption behind that approach that someone who finds themselves in a position of underoccupation, as defined, is somehow doing it to cheat the state, to grab more from housing benefit that they might be entitled to. The reasons that people end up in an underoccupying position are varied. It could be that the kids are leaving home to go to university; it could be that a member of the household has undertaken the instructions of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and got on their bike to find a job somewhere else; there could have been a death in the family. All sorts of reasons may underpin why people find themselves underoccupied, and I am not sure that that is reflected in the provisions.

I must stop agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Best, but I agree that underoccupation is more of an issue among elderly people. I remember people from the patch that I represented on the council. One elderly woman occupied alone the three-bedroom house that she had occupied since she started a family. That is where her memories were. She could not get up the stairs and used to sleep in the front room. That is not a satisfactory outcome to her life or, indeed, to the use of housing stock. Means of dealing with that, such as local authorities having a scheme whereby they can help people to move by dealing with the practical issues of carpets, curtains, utilities and so on, would relieve some of the risks and tensions associated with moving house.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Monday 10th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I have little to add to what my noble friend said about her amendment, which she moved comprehensively and quite brilliantly. Will the Minister confirm that ISA income is disregarded under existing arrangements for tax credits whereby the income, not the tariff, is looked at? If that is right, what is the read across to the new regime? Does that not reinforce my noble friend’s amendment?

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I was most grateful to the Minister for his previous reply and for the offer of detailed information on the question I asked him. Now I would like to ask him about child trust funds, and I hope I have the right hook on which to put this question. There has been some toing and froing about child trust funds, but thanks to the work of Paul Goggins MP and support cross-party, they have been reinstated for children in local authority care. The local authority will put in a sum, supported by the Government, for each year that a child is in care, I think. I am interested to know how that will be treated in this context. The Government have also moved away from providing money to parents for trust funds, but they are looking to find vehicles to encourage parents to put money for their children into these child trust funds. Again, I am interested to know how that particular vehicle will be treated in this context. I hope that is clear.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Earl of Listowel

Thursday 6th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I would just remark that if that is what the Prime Minister was intending to say, his usual high command of the English language eluded him on that occasion. My noble friend Baroness Wilkins emphasised the fear that people have about this process and about the WCA. My noble friend Lady Hollis was quite right to refer to carers. In fact, my shorthand amendment was meant to encompass that and I entirely accept the point. I am increasingly concerned about the impact of this on young carers as well. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred to support for work. He is right, it should not only be about supporting people linked to the labour market. It is a question of how we are going to increase growth and create jobs as well, which is a much wider debate.

My noble friend Lord Beecham made reference to the housing benefit changes and the impact that those will have on labour mobility. I think that the noble Lord referred to people not losing out from universal credit. When you look at the impact of universal credit and some other measures in the Bill, particularly the benefit cap and housing changes, I am not sure that that assertion would necessarily hold true. Having had a good start to proceedings today, we will revisit many of these issues.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I apologise for coming a little late to this debate, but there is an important point on which I would like some clarification. The Minister in his response said that we are trying to move from a complex system to a simpler one. That resonates with me, having listened to what Professor Eileen Munro has been trying to do with social work, where there was a very complex, bureaucratic system and they have tried to move to a more simple system. But they have discovered that the professional judgment of people at the front line becomes particularly important. The way they use their discretion becomes much more important, and listening to the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilkins and Lady Campbell, and the way in which some of these complex cases are being dealt with by people at the front line reminded me of what my noble friend Lady Meacher said about the importance of training people who work on the front line. It perhaps also reinforces the point I have made in the past about making the culture of the organisation in which people work sensitive to the needs of those who may be mentally ill or vulnerable, and who may respond very poorly to people who seem to be persecuting them in the way they are pursuing them. Have I understood that correctly or is the Minister referring to a different paradigm?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I think we would all support the concept of a system that was simpler and more readily understood. It helps with take-up, which is the point that the Minister made; we accept that. As we go through the Bill we will examine in fact how simple we can make the system. People have complex and sometimes very chaotic lives. How easy it is to distil those issues into a very simple system and still maintain fairness is one of the challenges we face as we go through the Bill. I readily accept the need to provide full support for people, particularly those at the front line. In a sense, we have an interesting situation in which the work programme, the “black box” approach, gives a lot of discretion in that respect to those working at the front line, but at the same time we have a universal benefit which is more constrained and potentially more restricted. Having said all that, it is probably time to withdraw the amendment, at least for the moment.