Devolution (Constitution Committee Reports)

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin by adding my thanks to the members of the Constitution Committee and the European Union Committee for their work in producing these excellent reports. In introducing his committee’s report, the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, displayed the intellect and experience he has shown throughout the years of his ministerial career. His dissection of the SNP’s record in government goes a long way to explaining, perhaps, his attitude. Perhaps, though, he was in danger of re-running the devolution battle and vote as he showed us his long-standing and genuine concern about the possible eventual road from devolution to separation. We must all work together to make sure that that does not happen. Support for the union has been common throughout the Chamber—in varying degrees, at times—and I add my support to that.

I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Duncan of Springbank, to his post. He follows an extremely distinguished predecessor in the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, who raised the bar very high and gained the support of this side of the House on many occasions with his attitude and ability. We wish the noble Lord, Lord Duncan of Springbank, well in his new post.

The reports before the House on the union and intergovernmental relations focus on the United Kingdom’s inner workings: how we work together and how we work as one. We are, as the committee expressed, a union by consent, and our political settlement is unique to our United Kingdom. I am a very firm supporter of the union, but it is over 300 years old and we cannot say that it should not evolve, devolve or change in any way—things have got to change in the light of experience and reality. But for as long as the union is there, it will have our full support.

The Constitution Committee outlined the strengths of the union and the risks to it in the context of Brexit. As has been stated before, it is striking that these first two reports were written before the vote on 23 June 2016. The issues raised over the stability of the union, the need for a blueprint for the future and the shortfalls of the joint ministerial committee have a new context and increased urgency in the light of the current EU negotiations.

It was interesting to hear positive support for Brexit from—what is her name?—the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox. I remember her well as a Minister and so should not have forgotten her name; my apologies.

The stability of our union requires careful management of the balance between unity and diversity. This is a mainstay of the report’s conclusions. Brexit is an acute test, and an opportunity, for this. Getting Brexit right for the United Kingdom means getting it right in Northern Ireland, Wales, back home in Scotland and, as my noble friend Lord Desai mentioned previously, here in England too.

The European Union Committee report summarises the political complexities that are the backdrop to these negotiations: the Scottish independence question, which was a threat to the union; the very real concern of colleagues in the Welsh Government that Wales will be overlooked, which has also been expressed here by colleagues from Wales; and the lack of a functioning power-sharing Executive in Northern Ireland, as so expertly diagnosed and commented on by my noble friend Lord Murphy of Torfaen. It has been six months since an Executive were in place in Northern Ireland. The Government have supported multiple rounds of negotiations, which have failed to return devolved government to the people of Northern Ireland. With what new conviction and what level of involvement will the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom approach the current round of talks to ensure that the outcome is different?

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union is currently engaged in the first round of negotiations in Brussels, which include the stark issue of the Irish border. I am impressed and pleased by the unity around the Chamber on the unique position of Northern Ireland as part of our United Kingdom. We all need to work hard to make sure that we come up with a sensible, practical solution that we can implement to assuage the fears expressed by that part of the United Kingdom. We commend the agreement there has been on all sides on the importance of retaining an open border and the Government’s stated commitment to the Good Friday agreement in their duty as co-guarantor. But—and I am not trying to gain party-political advantage here—this is the second set of negotiations in which the Government have achieved far too little. It is imperative that the Northern Irish parties are properly consulted and engaged with as we grapple with the future of this shared UK-EU border.

The joint ministerial committee has been mentioned a lot, and I was especially impressed by what the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, said—he will be pleased that I managed to say his name without stuttering this time. He stressed the importance of the mechanics of government that would make sure this co-operation is extended. The reports detail the strengths and shortcomings of the joint ministerial committee. Concerns have been expressed a few times around grandstanding and time limits, but the report also recognises the strength of these formal channels in bolstering informal communication between Governments. It is difficult to say how well the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) has been working this year, since it has not met since February.

The Labour Party took seriously the committee’s recommendation that the Government should consider setting the JMC out in statute, which has been mentioned tonight by a number of noble Lords. We supported amendments during the notification of the withdrawal Act which would have built consultation with the devolved Administrations formally, in statute, into the Brexit process. Rather than this structured blueprint on how to move forward, the Government opted instead for no blueprint. Can the Minister tell the House with what frequency and through what mechanisms the devolved Administrations have been consulted in lieu of the JMC meeting?

The reports powerfully raise the issue of shared and overlapping competencies between the UK Government and devolved powers, with the EU Committee’s report setting out the new landscape we have to navigate. We take the point of view that these are not problems to destroy things but opportunities to come to new agreements and co-operation for the good of the people we all represent. It has been mentioned often tonight that as powers are repatriated to the UK from the EU, the EU frameworks that standardised, for example, the UK’s single market, will no longer be applicable. The number of varying competencies that overlap between devolved and central jurisdictions will increase. If ever there was a moment for a thought-out blueprint on UK governmental relations moving forwards, it is now.

Genuine fears have been expressed on all sides of the House that the withdrawal Bill brought forward by the Government fails to achieve this. There are concerns that it represents a sweeping power grab by Ministers at the expense of the sovereignty of this Parliament, and undermines the United Kingdom’s devolution settlements. We all have the responsibility to make devolution work—the United Kingdom Parliament and the devolved Administrations—because we all represent people. I take the point of view that we are all trying our best to do that. But in our opinion, it requires slightly more determination to consult with the devolved Administrations and come to practical agreements with them.

Labour has tabled an amendment to remove the proposed restrictions on the ability of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly to legislate on these devolved matters. Your Lordships’ House will be aware that the Welsh and Scottish Governments have already worked together to publish a series of amendments on devolved issues in the Bill. It is not a case of accepting willy-nilly what anyone else says: these are serious people bringing forward serious suggestions and they should be looked at seriously for the future of the United Kingdom.

With regard to future working, in the coming years the Government will have to work closely with the devolved Administrations. Devolution is here to stay, but we need to secure a post-referendum settlement for the UK. I suggest that the Bill is not the best way to begin that process. What is the Government’s vision for the future devolution settlement in the United Kingdom? What thought has been given to establishing structures to be put in place so that the common frameworks that the UK as a whole needs to thrive can be consulted, agreed and legislated on?

I raise a final point about the Civil Service expertise that was also recently raised in the excellent paper on British-Irish relations. Different departments work with the devolved Administrations to differing degrees, as has been mentioned tonight. As the committee expressed, there are differing levels of success. But as officials work through repatriated powers and changes to policies in the coming years, it is incredibly important that they understand the significance of a policy for the people on the Isle of Barra as well as in Birmingham, for example. Can the Minister tell the House what the Government are doing to ensure that expertise about the devolved jurisdictions is widespread through the Civil Service?

We take the point of view that the union need not be threatened or jeopardised by devolution. The facts of life in Scotland are that the Labour Party was elected on a mandate in 1997 to hold a referendum. The Scottish people voted quite overwhelmingly for that. That is their expectation and that is their demand. The demand on all of us is to make sure that it works.