Apprenticeships

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Young, on obtaining this debate. I was gently reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, that three of us taking part in this debate were all born within a mile and a half of one another: himself, the noble Lord, Lord Haughey, and I was on the north side of the river. Glasgow is also well represented by the noble Lord, Lord Macfarlane, who is a good friend and was an employer in my constituency through Diageo and employed many good apprentices.

When I had the privilege of being Speaker, I was shocked that this Palace of Westminster did not employ any apprentices. I called together the heads of the craft departments, including catering and banqueting, and asked them if they would co-operate in an apprenticeship scheme. All of them agreed to do so. The apprenticeship scheme has been very successful. I was stopped by a young person recently who told me he had applied for the Speaker’s apprenticeship scheme and had now qualified as an electrician. I asked him whether his mum and dad were proud. He said, “They were so proud on the day that I completed my apprenticeship”.

That is the important thing about an apprenticeship: it not only gives dignity to the young person, it gives dignity to parents and grandparents—everyone in the family. When you look round this very Chamber, Pugin himself was an apprentice. It was not through university that he did the marvellous things that he did here, but was because he was an apprentice. We have upholstery, carpet-laying, the beautiful Throne with the gilt decoration, the ornate brasswork—all of that can be passed on to apprentices. If they are not able to continue their employment in the Palace of Westminster, we have given them a skill that they can go anywhere in the world with, and they are able to use their hands.

I congratulate the Government on ensuring that the £1,500 can go not only to those aged between 16 and 18 but those aged up to 24. It should be remembered that some young men and women, because of circumstances—perhaps because they were not paying attention or because they could not get employment in the area they were living in—have to come into apprenticeships late. It is good that the Government have made a facility to give grants to employers that are willing to give adults apprenticeships. Why should it be only school leavers who get training in apprenticeships? It should be the case that anyone who wants to learn is never refused.

As we know, the £1,500 gives protective clothing to the young person who is employed. It is not about an employer getting something extra. Whenever they get that £1,500, it is handed over to the apprentice by giving them tools and protective clothing. I say to the Minister: I hope that the good work has continued. I hope that the House authorities remember that it would be a sad day if we were encouraging private employers to take up apprenticeships but did not do so within the confines of our own building.

I have mentioned before in supplementary questions that there are areas—in Scotland, Ireland and parts of England, such as the north-east—which are remote and rural. They may be lovely places to spend your childhood but, when it comes to getting an apprenticeship, there are not many employers around. If a trainee goes to university, there is a hall of residence. If, however, a youngster wants to get into, say, the aero-engine division of the aircraft industry, it may be that there is no accommodation for them. They may have to go perhaps 30, 40 or 100 miles away from home with no relative to put them up. I hope that we will be able to accommodate our apprenticeships and our craft apprentices the same as we do students. I do not see any reason we cannot do that. In fact, it would be a sad day if we could not.

I know that the Government and employers have a lot on their plate. In the old days, however, when you had big employers—the shipyards and Rolls-Royce, which I worked in—no one gave a great deal of thought to being self-employed because you went from one big employer to another. Nowadays, young craftsmen have to think in terms of being self-employed. I hope that, in an apprenticeship, there is some education given to youngsters to say, “Look, don’t be frightened of becoming self-employed”.

Housing: Inherited Social Housing Tenancies

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Monday 24th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I do not have to hand the number of starts. All I can say is that the number of completions in that last year—the handover year—was the lowest level of building in peacetime since the 1920s, which is a pretty shameful performance from a Government who saw a very long boom. I would like to be able to answer the question, but if I am not allowed to I will not.

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

There are communities where, unfortunately, the housing estates are known as hard-to-let properties. If the noble Lord, through legislation, is forcing families out of those houses, it is not necessarily the case that those who are on the waiting list will take up those houses. There is a danger that the people who are fighting hard to keep up the morale of the community in hard-to-let housing areas will see empty property vandalised, will despair and will leave the housing estate where they have worked so hard to keep up appearances.

[Lord Freud]

Local authorities clearly have a duty here and interest in their local areas to manage them. We are making sure that they have those resources in discretionary housing payments. Indeed, I have been very keen to spend the extra £20 million of funding on discretionary housing payments. It is a balance of maintaining the housing stock and the people in it with the right people in it. There are always isolated cases where the management of particular estates is tough; those are issues for the local areas.

Employment: Young People

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

In the north-east, the number of youngsters—those under 24 years old—who have been claiming as unemployed has gone down by 27%; that is by 7,500 to a figure of 20,000. One of the interesting things about the unemployment figures is how broadly based they have been. If you take the four most northern regions of the country—the north-east, the north-west, Yorkshire and Humberside, and Scotland—they have in combination reduced their claimant count by 43,000 youngsters to 118,000. That is, interestingly, rather more than London and the south-east.

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

The Minister will recognise that there are far more self-employed journeymen and women than there used to be. Are the jobcentres targeting these self-employed people to take on apprentices?

[Lord Freud]

The apprenticeship is one of the most valuable ways of getting youngsters into the workforce. Clearly, sole traders are a valuable resource for that. One of the most interesting projects is called Working Rite, which pairs up youngsters with sole traders. That is something that we encourage.

Looking at the number of apprenticeships as a whole, in the three years since the election we have had nearly 1 million apprenticeships of people under 25. That is very encouraging; it is 50% higher than the equivalent three years beforehand.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I must make clear that the removal of the spare-room subsidy is not a sanction. The numbers are down from 660,000 to 523,000, which may indicate some behaviour trip-change, as people move to smaller places where they can. The self-declared proportion of disabled people is two-thirds, but when you look at the DLA figures it is 17% of the total. We have raised the amount of DHPs to help with the transition; we have £180 million. The signs at the moment are that there will not be a demand for all of it.

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

My Lords, it is bound to be the case that when tenants vacate a flat or a house, some of the properties will remain empty in parts of the United Kingdom. Will he make sure that records are kept of the cost of their upkeep, and also protect them from vandalism?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are having an intensive review of what is happening. Clearly, there are a large number of people—1.8 million—on the waiting list who would welcome a place to live when it is vacated. We can also look to move some of the people who are living in overcrowded social accommodation; that is a large figure that I discussed with the House yesterday. That will give them some relief.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I will not. The department is engaged in a massive programme of reform. We have successfully brought in a benefit cap, and we have launched PIP, the universal credit and housing benefit reform, to name just a few.

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that in circumstances where couples are required to leave underoccupied houses, it is not necessarily the case that the house that is vacated will be easily re-let?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the position is that we have got a large number of overcrowded social homes; we have got a very long waiting list, stretching out to 2 million people; and the job of local authorities is to make sure that available homes are matched with the requirement of people who have larger families.

Universal Credit

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I need to remind the noble Lord that the system went live, as he put it, earlier than October—it went live last April. We have a pathfinder which is learning extraordinary amounts. In particular, I remind noble Lords that we have established that the link between universal credit and the real-time information system works. The real-time information system that we were able to announce earlier is now fully up and running, with 99% of people on PAYE feeding through into it.

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

I do not rise to criticise universal credit but to put on record the great worry in the community-based housing associations that levels of arrears will rise. That is a worry for them. Could the Minister look into that?

[Lord Freud]

I thank the noble Lord for that. We have spent a lot of time bottoming out this issue. Clearly, incorporating housing benefit into universal credit is an absolutely central part of what we are trying to do, but it was essential that we did not get to a position that undermined the finances of the social housing industry. That is why we ran the demonstration housing projects. From those, we have created a system which means that we will have switchbacks after two months and an early alert after one month. There is a very effective underpinning for the finances of housing associations.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Not, my Lords, of insulting the people, who have never had a chance to speak on this and whose views are rather uncertain. The noble Lord, Lord Alli, has set out his litany of votes and I cannot gainsay that in any way, but I can certainly gainsay him on the polls which have been taken. If he is so confident about the view of public opinion, he should have no hesitation about going forward and agreeing to this referendum. Indeed, it is something which was discussed last Friday in the other place. The Foreign Secretary was really quite lyrical about referenda. Perhaps I may remind him of what he said:

“That is why every Member of the House who is a true democrat can and should unite behind the Bill”—

this was a referendum Bill on the EU—

“It is about letting the people decide … Ultimately, it would be up to the voters to decide, and that is the essence of democracy”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/7/13; col. 1191.]

Certainly there is no constitutional objection to referenda on the part of the Government. I concede that referenda have mostly been held on constitutional issues, although there are examples in our history of referenda on issues that were manifestly not constitutional. The first referendum that I was aware of was in relation to the opening of public houses in Wales. Even those who want to stretch their imagination could hardly suggest that the opening of public houses in Wales is a referendum issue.

I follow the noble Lord, Lord Singh, and I adopt what he has said. This was an amendment which I broadly put forward myself in Committee. The only difference is that, having listened to the objections then, such as that it was just a delaying device and 2015 would be too late, the noble Lord has brought the date forward to 2013. However, I am not convinced that the wording is as it should be. As was said in Committee, it should probably be left to the Electoral Commission, which is the normal pattern. But I think that the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, did a great disservice to the amendment which has been put forward by distorting it in the way that he did, as if the current position is perfect and only some zealots wish to alter it: do you agree with the zealots or not? I think that this wording is fairly reasonable, and the only reason I object to it is that I think that it should come from the Electoral Commission and not be on the face of the Bill.

The basic argument for having a referendum is the fact that the Government have no mandate for this—certainly no mandate from the people. The commitment was not included in the 2010 Conservative, Liberal or Labour manifestos. The subsidiary argument is the speed of the passage of this Bill. Not only was it not mentioned in the manifestos, not only did a number of the relevant pressure groups not come to this view in respect of gay marriage until a year or two ago, but there has been an unholy haste about this Bill which is difficult to understand. It is rather as if there has been a mass conversion equivalent to that of, say, an African tribal leader who mass converts many of the members of his tribe.

Noble Lords have suggested that there have been occasions in the past when legislative changes have been made without a mandate. That is true, of course, but none has been as fundamental as that set out in the Bill before us today. Although laws defining marriage have changed incrementally over the years—the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, gave a whole series of those—nothing has been as fundamental as this one: changing the basic definition of marriage. I suppose that a case could be made for an exception to the electoral mandate principle if it were apparent by other means that there was consensus in public opinion.

I concede that there have been majorities in both Houses, but there is no clear consensus in public opinion. It depends very much on the question that has been asked. Opinion polls have been fairly evenly divided. Some have suggested that there is a majority against, some that there is a majority in favour. If further proof of the absence of consensus were needed, however, let me quote from the Government’s own analysis of their consultation process:

“Overall, views were divided. Of the 228,000 responses to the consultation, 53% agreed that same-sex couples should be able to have a civil marriage ceremony and 46% disagreed ... However, these figures do not take account of those petitions we received, which were universally opposed”.

Moreover, the need for a referendum set out in my speech in Committee was compounded by other failures of due process. I shall not repeat what I said in Committee regarding the failures of due process during the passage of the Bill. I have made the point that the Government are not against referenda in principle. One argument advanced in our earlier debate was that it would not be appropriate to have a referendum when the Bill was passed with such a clear majority in another place. That, however, as the noble Lord, Lord Singh, has properly pointed out, misses the point. No one questions the majorities, the facts are there. If the referendum is opposed in order to make good the lack of any mandate, the votes of MPs on this issue are not relevant because there was no electoral mandate at the time for an issue which is manifestly a fundamental one.

Other noble Lords objected to the idea of having a referendum simply because they considered the redefinition promoted by this Bill to be a self-evidently good thing and recoiled at the idea that it should be subject to a vote. If it was, of course, such a manifestly good thing, why have so many colleagues come to this realisation so speedily and at such a late stage? Had this vote been taken three years ago, it would not have had those majorities—perhaps not even one or two years ago, so it is not such a manifestly good thing.

Another argument advanced by the Minister, and advanced earlier in this evening’s debate, was that referenda should be preserved for constitutional questions. Apart from the fact that Parliament is completely free to apply referenda whenever it sees fit, the key point is that the marriage Bill raises important constitutional questions. I refer to the implications for the establishment of the Church of England, as explained by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester in his important Second Reading speech. Moreover, Aidan O’Neill QC in his legal opinion on the Bill suggests that it risks partial disestablishment. The Government have made this a constitutional question by disregarding due process and by conducting a consultation which, in my judgment, was a bogus consultation that ignored many of the questions, because the majority were, in fact, against it.

To conclude, it is increasingly common to hear politicians express their profound concerns about the disconnect between political institutions and their passionate commitment to reaching out and listening to the people. This is an opportunity to do so. My judgment is that there is profound discontent and not just among the older generations on this issue.

I am still waiting to hear from the Minister why there is such unprecedented haste in pushing through this Bill. There must be some good reason, or some reason behind the reason, which I would like to hear. We should not seek to kid ourselves that we can proceed on this basis and expect anything other than unhappy consequences. Rather than this being a law that was developed in a proper way and that rests on a constitutionally appropriate foundation, everyone knows that it was pushed through without proper regard for constitutional convention. There was certainly no mandate and there has certainly been substantial haste, as yet unexplained.

To date, the Government have not provided any compelling reason for not supporting a referendum. If they believe that the tide of history over the past year or two since their damascene conversion is on their side and they have no constitutional objection to it—I cite the two referenda in general and the rather lyrical references to referenda in the speech of the right honourable Foreign Secretary last Friday—they should have no hesitation in providing for a referendum so that the people can decide on this issue.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have always looked forward to the wisdom of the noble Lord and of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and it is nice to see them disagree with one another and disagree so well. It is often the case that the Minister gets to the Dispatch Box and says, “Well, this amendment is not suitable but perhaps we can get something else”. I think that there should be some consultation with the people. For everyone arguing that this is a democratic process, which should therefore be good enough for the people, we should remember the problems that this generation and generations before us have had. In Northern Ireland, we had a Government who kept saying, “The majority rule and forget about the minority or about consulting with the people. We are the ones who will push through the legislation and that will be the end of it”.

I just point to several such matters. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, will recall that the Scottish people were the first in the British Isles to get the poll tax. That was because of a democratic decision in the other place, even though some MPs, including me, said at the time, “You’re creating a rod for your own back”. However, it was not until the poll tax came to the rest of the United Kingdom that people readily acknowledged that we were wrong. The argument that it goes through both Houses and that is the end of it and people have to accept it, is nonsense. We could be creating very serious problems. Noble Lords should bear in mind that it is normally the case that the Opposition question the Government, if that is what they want to do. However, the Opposition are supporting, not questioning, the Government on this legislation. That is where I feel that there should be some consultation.

Noble Lords will recall that the last time that the Labour Party and the Conservative Party got together, it was when the Conservative Party supported the then Labour Government in going into Iraq and seeking to remove Saddam Hussein. At the time, the Liberals said that there was a feeling out there in the country that this was wrong. Ever since then, we have been asking ourselves whether or not it was the right thing to do. I am on my feet not because there needs to be a referendum but because we need to find some way of consulting the people about the difficulties that we have got here. We are not passing a complete piece of marriage legislation. The Government have been shrewd enough to exclude the Church of England and the Catholic Church and to say, “We are not forcing you to do this”. Therefore we are not getting a piece of marriage legislation in the normal sense of the word. Of course the dates are down here in the amendment, but amendments can be changed or replaced by something more suitable to the Government and ultimately to the House. Let us find a way of consulting the people about what we are putting through both Houses.

--- Later in debate ---

I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Martin, who was, of course, a very distinguished Speaker of the other House. He reminded us of the poll tax in Scotland. The noble Lord and I live in Scotland. I tread very carefully and sensitively with Conservative noble friends here, but the Conservative Party did not exactly reap electoral dividends from what it did with the poll tax in Scotland. I think the Conservative Party would be the first to accept that its electoral performance since the poll tax has not exactly been an example of how you can ignore what the people say and get away with it.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I make the point that, at the time, both the noble and learned Lord and I would have said to Conservative Ministers, “Please consult with the people”. They would have found that the people clearly said, “No way do we want this”. They would then not have got into the difficulties they did when it got to the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The point is that under our constitutional, democratic architecture, Members of Parliament make their judgments, cast their votes and then answer to the electorate. That is the appropriate way in which we go about these matters.

The Prime Minister was mentioned. Anyone who has heard the Prime Minister talk on this issue knows that he does so from real conviction. It is a great credit to the Prime Minister that he has had the courage to give leadership on this issue and that this Bill has got to where it is today.

Support has also been reflected in recent opinion polls. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth referred to that. I remind your Lordships of a House of Commons Library research paper on this Bill. Here is a summary of polls on same-sex marriages offering a two-way choice: October 2011, ComRes—51% support; 7 March 2012, ICM—admittedly not a majority but 45%; May 2012, YouGov in the Sunday Times—51%; December 2012, YouGov—55%; December 2012, Survation—60%; December 2012, ICM—62%; February 2013, YouGov in the Sunday Times—55%; 5 February 2013, YouGov in the Sun—54%; 19 May 2013, YouGov—55%.

However, I make the point that numbers are not everything. This Bill is about putting right a wrong. We believe in the importance of the institution of marriage. We wish to ensure that gay and lesbian couples can be part of it in the same way as opposite-sex couples. We want to get on with that, and therefore I ask the House to reject this amendment.

Property: Under-occupancy Charge

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s support. It is important that we see how people respond. We are expecting a behavioural response and people to change their behaviour. We are watching what is happening very closely. I will make appropriate responses when I know what is happening, but it is too early to do so now.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

The Minister talks about freeing up property. He will know that, unfortunately, throughout the United Kingdom, there are estates where property is considered hard to let. By these proposals, will he not force couples out of properties and run the risk of those houses lying vacant? That will not help improve the environment for the people who live on such estates and are trying to make a better life for themselves.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as I have said, the early indications are that there is quite a lot of variation around the country. There are clearly some estates with genuine difficulties and we need to watch the situation very closely.

Unemployment: Young People

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the blunt explanation for that is that we have a welfare system that traps people in inactivity and makes it very difficult for them to pick up some of the jobs that other people find it easy to take. That is why we are reforming the welfare system root and branch, in particular why we are bringing in the universal credit, which will get rid of that trapping effect of our benefit system.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

In the coming year, will more young people be taken on as apprentices in the Government’s apprentice scheme?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, one of the recommendations of the Wolf report, which, as noble Lord’s will remember, I am very enthusiastic about, is to underpin the importance of apprenticeships and vocational training. In the latest year for which I have a record, 2011-12, we had more than half a million apprenticeships—520,000. That is up 86% on the two years before. Clearly this is one of the most important ways in which to get youth back into the workforce in a sustainable way, and it is something that we are pursuing aggressively.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Grand Committee

The point is well made that this is about natural justice. If the Minister is unable to accept the amendments today, I hope that at least he will go away and reflect between now and Report, because I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and others will want to bring this back.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I am very interested in the question of families being exposed to asbestos. I draw on my own experience as an apprentice metalworker in the mid-1960s. Sometimes there would be a rush job to manufacture electric heaters. Asbestos board was used to hold the elements in those heaters. It was therefore required to drill dozens of holes in that board. As young apprentices, we were not trained in the dangers of asbestos. Strangely enough we quite liked it when there was a rush job, as we got some overtime. The metal was covered in oil and it used to go on our clothes. Meanwhile, you just blew the dust off the nice white board and you did not realise that any harm was being done.

The point that I am raising is that in the factory where I worked there were dozens of young ladies, in the same age group as myself, who assembled the electric heaters. They were usually given the same job to do every day. Two of my female colleagues, two sisters, spent all day drilling the asbestos board, regardless of whether there was overtime. There was what was called stack drilling: there were maybe five or six boards packed together in what was known as a jig, and 24 or 25 holes were drilled. When the drill went through, the asbestos went all over.

It was those sisters’ mum who did the washing in their household. In the communities that I lived in, in the mid-1960s, washing machines were a luxury; they were not in every home. Later, I had the good fortune to represent the constituency where I had served my apprenticeship. At that time I spoke to one of these young ladies and asked her how she was getting on and how her mum was keeping. She never mentioned asbestos but she said, “Mum’s getting breathless”. I did not have the heart to say directly, “Have you checked out whether it’s asbestos-related?”, but I said that she had best make sure that her mum got to the doctor. It was a worry of mine that her mum may well have contracted a condition because she had two hard-working daughters who worked every day with white asbestos boards.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I rise to speak very briefly in support of the amendments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, and particularly to address the question of the self-employed which is covered by Amendment 7.

Many people working as jobbers in industries who may undertake patching work in schools or in other buildings where asbestos was involved—perhaps electricians who need to drill into the walls—will have had this exposure. As a consequence, many of them will have suffered, and many will have died. Their need for recognition and for help by way of compensation is as great as that of those who are not self-employed. I understand from where the Government have come on this—this is an agreement with the insurance industry, of course—but that in no way lessens the need and the suffering of those who are self-employed, who might not be the people who the insurance industry would choose to recompense in this way. If that is the case, does it not behove the Government to step in to fill the breach for those who cannot be covered by such a scheme? I simply ask the Government and the Minister to think about that between now and Report.