Distribution of Dormant Account Money (Apportionment) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Higgins has raised a number of the points which I would otherwise have raised, but we wish to reinforce his inquiries. I note that the money is being handled in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland by the Big Lottery Fund. What prioritisation, if any, is being indicated by the Governments of the countries to which power has been devolved? What relationship is there between the views of the Governments in these countries and the Big Lottery Fund? Will it be open to them to seek to influence the judgment of what is apparently being described as money for the public sector? It is to my mind rather odd that no public consultations were deemed necessary to consider this matter, or other matters related to the distribution of the dormant account moneys, since the amount is not negligible. I would be very interested to know if—in the course of the discussions about how the money might be divided up—any representations were made by the devolved Governments about how the money ought to be spent. Were they content with the proposal that it should be left to the discretion of the Big Lottery Fund?

So far as the reliance upon the Barnett formula is concerned, there have been many occasions—some recently in our House—when the limitations of the formula have been considered. Perhaps this is not the occasion to reopen that question, but it is a little disappointing that we have received an indication that the Barnett formula is considered to be the best method of financing the Governments of the devolved countries, without any indication that any sort of inquiry has been made by the Government.

It appears that some interesting suggestions have been canvassed by experts in this area. I draw attention in particular to the views of Professor Iain McLean of Nuffield College, Oxford, on how other countries tackle this problem. He drew attention to the example of how the Australian provinces meet to decide these issues. The time has come at least to put in hand significant research, because there is a widespread perception that the Barnett formula’s outcomes are not just inequitable. However, it would be a mistake, on the back of this order, to carry that out as far as it has been carried out in other forums.

The question of the amounts of money available is of great interest, and I am happy to have heard from my noble friend that the sums anticipated for this year are in the order of between £60 million and £100 million. Have any assessments been made as to whether those sums will be a one-off, or whether they will continue and, if so, at what level? I realise that that is a difficult issue to hypothesise about, but if any work has been done, it would be interesting if it could be shared with the Committee. I am grateful to my noble friend for what she has said.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for her introduction. I certainly support the order and I am glad that the money will be distributed. I recognise that now is not the time to discuss how the dormant accounts money is to be spent, nor is it the time to have a discussion about the big society bank. However, I have reservations about the big society bank because, while I believe that it will help some people and organisations, it is a very small answer to the problems that they will encounter as a result of cuts in local authority services.

The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked whether the noble Baroness thought that the £60 million to £100 million that it is estimated will come from dormant bank accounts this year will be a one-off, or if such an amount of money can go into the big society bank every year. If it is a one-off, my concern about the viability of the big society bank is exacerbated because, if there is to be a bank that will really fulfil what is likely to be an important role in supporting charities and civil society, it has to be more sustainable than something that will get possibly £60 million next year—or possibly not. Who knows? That raises some concerns.

I hear what the noble Baroness says about the Barnett formula. Discussions have taken place on whether or not there are other options and, clearly, the decision has been taken and has come down in favour of the Barnett formula. It would be interesting to know what discussions have taken place, and with whom, in order to reach that decision. I am concerned about its specific impact on Wales because it is widely recognised that Wales tends to lose out as a consequence of the Barnett formula.

As I said, I am glad that the money is to be distributed and welcome the order. However, it raises profound concerns which must be addressed, if not today then in the future.

Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I welcome this measure and thank my noble friend Lord Taylor for his clear description of the purposes and the changes that are to take place under the Civil Contingencies Act to reflect the new structure of local government in London more appropriately by involving the Greater London Authority. The timeliness of the measure seems particularly clear in the light of the imminent international descent on London at the time of the Olympic Games. It is very much to be hoped that this structural change will give rise to discussions about potential risk and about the continuing responsibility for eliminating dangers.

I believe that the Government have also received a publication, in response to the consultation on the second phase, on 14 March. Although that response goes wider than this order, I hope that the Minister in replying to the debate might be able to say something about how that report reveals what has been considered and, in particular, the extent of the review of emergency preparedness.

This measure is entirely welcome. I hope that your Lordships’ Committee and the House will enact it as soon as possible.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for his clear explanation. However, I wonder whether the order comes back to the much heralded bonfire of the quangos and the abolition of government offices throughout the UK. Thanks to the tremendous changes following the Minister’s work on the Public Bodies Bill, we know that the vast sums that the Government initially planned to secure as a result of a bonfire of the quangos that will get rid of government offices throughout the UK will not be realised. I make no criticism of that, as I believe that that is in many ways the difference between the rhetoric of opposition and the realism of government. However, it is clear that, even if a body such as the Government Office for London has been abolished, the functions still have to be maintained. That is why this order is so important, because it will ensure the continuity of these very important duties.

The order does not raise any problems as far as I can see. As the Minister said, it will bring London more into line with what is happening in the rest of the country, which is of course to be welcomed. I also note that the costs will all be for the GLA, so central government will not face any increased burden. The Explanatory Memorandum states:

“The impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies”,

and,

“on the public sector is minimal”.

However, I would be grateful for one assurance from the Minister. As a consequence of these structural changes, can he assure us that all the services that are mentioned in paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum will be safeguarded? Of course, pandemics and severe weather are both of the utmost importance. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, in these unstable times when we have the Olympics upon us in the very near future, I would be grateful for an assurance from the Minister that resistance plans for the Olympic Games will be safeguarded and enhanced by this legislation.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords—I beg the noble Lord’s pardon: after you.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I undertake not to delay the House for long. We no doubt wish to hear from the noble Baroness.

I would find it helpful if the Minister could indicate, in the context of the debate that we have had, whether it is considered that the functions currently exercised by the RDAs would be transferable to any of the bodies listed in Clause 1(3)(b), (c), (d) or (e). It is not clear on the face of it whether that is the case. I have little doubt that under Clause 1(3)(b) a “person exercising public functions” might, in view of the interpretation clause, include the transference of the RDA functions, which are conferred under an enactment—that enactment presumably being the subordinate legislation that the Bill provides for. However, it is not quite so clear that the last three sub-categories—companies limited by guarantee, a community interest company or a body of trustees—are appropriate for this.

There is, incidentally, no reference to local authorities here. That is something else that we might wish to consider at a later stage on the Bill. I am seeking clarification to assist the debate when we come to the substantive question about the RDAs later.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I also support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Liddle. This brief debate has demonstrated the importance of this issue and how many questions are still to be answered about the transfer of powers, functions and assets. I humbly suggest to the Minister that, before we get to the substantive discussion on RDAs, it would be helpful if we could have some details about the transfer of the various functions and assets. That would help us all manage the debates in a more seemly fashion.

Everyone has declared where they come from. I come from the south-west, and one of the issues that we are pondering is how European funding is going to be distributed and by whom, who is going to be accountable and so on. I would be grateful if, among the information coming to us, the Minister could tell us about that.

This debate goes to the heart of localism. My noble friend Lord Liddle’s Amendment 16 goes right to the heart of that debate, and it is eminently sensible that the body that is going to be responsible for the functions is based in the regions and in as local an area as possible, precisely because people in London do not know the real needs of the regions, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said. They do not know the employment potential or the real employment needs.

I would link these arguments to the Statement that we have just heard about the OBR and the importance of growth. I wonder how LEPs are going to fit in with whatever comes out of the Government’s White Paper on growth. As we know, the RDAs were a catalyst for growth and employment in the regions. RDAs are going and LEPs are coming in their place, so what can we expect of LEPs as catalysts for growth in the regions? How will the Bill interact with the White Paper?

House of Lords Reform

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I remind the noble Baroness that the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which reformed the composition of this House by removing from its Benches the Law Lords, was not put to a referendum. Has she any precedent for what she suggests?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I acknowledge that there was no referendum on that occasion, but I respectfully suggest to the noble Lord that making this House an elected House would be a fundamental change in our constitution.