Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, I should like to expand slightly on what the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, and my noble friend Lord Gordon have said. I am greatly reassured to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that the Economic Affairs Committee of this House will consider the issues around the economics of independence. I have one suggestion to make for the Green Paper proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and that is to look at the impact on employment of the proposal for an independent Scotland—in other words, that Scotland should secede from the union.

In the 1970s, a very effective campaign was run in Scotland led by the Scottish TUC, the CBI and the Scottish Council for Development and Industry for the dispersal of Civil Service jobs. A few weeks ago I tabled a Question for Written Answer asking how many Civil Service jobs in Scotland relate to reserved departments—in other words, United Kingdom departments as distinct from Scottish departments. There are 31,000 jobs in reserved departments. There is no question that these jobs will disappear. No sovereign state offshores significant Civil Service jobs. We do not have any British Civil Service jobs in the Republic of Ireland, in Jersey or in any of the other realms and areas close to our shores. It is inconceivable that we would have a situation where these Civil Service jobs would remain in Scotland.

If I was a Member of Parliament for places such as the north or the south-west of England and I saw the prospect of these Civil Service jobs becoming available, I would be crying out for them. There are jobs at every level, from limited skill at entry level to real leadership jobs with real salaries. Even on a random guesstimate of the multiplier of these jobs, on a multiplier of three, in the wider economy we are talking about something approaching 100,000 jobs directly consequential on the cessation of Scotland from the United Kingdom.

Some jobs will carry a higher multiplier because they are, for example, in science and technology; in the Ministry of Defence, both uniform and civilian; or they have a long supply chain in Scotland. We need to know what the outcome of that is likely to be for the Scottish economy. Like other noble Lords, I do not expect the noble and learned Lord to accept that this amendment should go in the Bill but I hope that there is already within government at least a Cabinet committee looking at these issues. The economic issue is perhaps the simplest. Once we go on to welfare matters, we are into a degree of complexity that will give us sore heads for a long time.

I urge the noble and learned Lord when he replies to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to take into account the crying need for dispassionate information about the true consequences. Let us take a decision based on fact and not on rhetoric.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I support the objective of my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I believe that the Scottish people need to be presented with much more detailed information about the consequences of separation than are likely to be provided by the popular press or the media. The reality is that the last time we had a referendum on constitutional reform, on AV, the media noticed the issue for no more than two weeks before the vote took place. Although the issue of voting systems is nothing like as significant as that with which we are now faced, which could lead to the break-up of Britain, I do not have any expectation that the depth of analysis that would be available to most people in the popular media would be anything like sufficient to assist the formation of a carefully cast vote. Although it may not be appropriate to put this directly into the Bill, it seems to me that the Government are best placed to analyse the consequences for government departments. Although there is an issue of whether that is the most independent way, the factual description of what would flow can be done. I would go further and say that there is a need for independence not only for a factual explanation of what is feasibly anticipated for Scotland, but the required consideration of alternatives for the whole of the United Kingdom.

That process would require considerable, objective debate, as the noble Lord, Lord Gordon, said. I am not certain that the alternative would best be discussed or presented by the Government at this stage. To have that debate, properly informed, is imperative if we are not going to blunder into a constitutional catastrophe, not just for Scotland but for the whole of the United Kingdom.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke

Thursday 26th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

Perhaps I may make a brief intervention in support of my noble friend’s amendment. I, too, should declare an interest. I was at the famous party also, and if I had thought that visiting a football park could be so much fun, I might have gone before now.

I support the amendment because I am particularly exercised about the extent to which the reserved area of foreign affairs is often affected by debate in the Scottish Parliament, and at some of the attitudes that are adopted by Members of the Scottish Parliament as they go abroad. In particular, in the English-speaking Commonwealth, where BBC News, BBC Parliament and Sky are available, the interlocutors among us who have been practitioners in foreign affairs are perhaps watching debates in the Scottish Parliament or are picking up stories on foreign affairs that come out of it that can make life difficult for our people who are involved in sometimes sensitive negotiations. Usually, such debates are set against a background of imperfect knowledge as to why issues are being raised and discussed.

My noble friend Lord Foulkes made a valid point when he said that we go to great lengths in this Parliament to ensure that we do not trespass on devolved affairs. Since the beginning of the Scottish Parliament, there has been a laxness of attitude to straying into reserved areas. I am not suggesting that Members of the Scottish Parliament, be they in the Scottish Government or otherwise, should be grounded, but I ask your Lordships to take into account that one of the conventions of this Parliament is that when you travel abroad you do not criticise your own Government, even if it is a Government of a different colour to the party that you are a member of. That can increasingly be undermined by interventions from people who do not owe any loyalty to the concept of the foreign policy of the United Kingdom.

This may seem an arcane part of the debate and, without doubt, it will be portrayed as carping about the magnificent foreign policy of the Scottish Parliament, but there are men and women around the world today doing very difficult jobs in sometimes difficult circumstances. They are not helped by voices off.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I would not like it to be thought that the views expressed in the previous two interventions were partisan in any sense. I certainly identify with those comments.

It appears to me that if the principle of subsidiarity distributes powers up and down, there should be clear and at least conventional understandings as to the limitations of interventions in respect of matters that are principally for one tier of government. This is not an absolute distinction. In the Lisbon treaty affecting the governance of the European Union, provision has been made for national Parliaments to participate in dialogue with the institutions of the EU about matters in which they are interested. Of course, we have in this House a Select Committee on European affairs and we offer thoughts and advice, but do not attempt to give any impression—and I believe we do not—that we are actually responsible for the matters that are being decided upon. Too often, the voices expressed, particularly by the Scottish National Party, attempt to give that impression.

Although it may not be a requirement that we lay down the law, as it were, it is a worthy motive that inspired the amendment and it emphasises what should be a clear convention. If the Scottish Parliament or any part of it, or a majority in it, want to engage the Government of the United Kingdom in discussion, it would be sensible to adopt the noble Lord’s amendment—and I hope that Members of the Scottish Parliament will take note of these recommendations.

Scottish Parliament (Constituencies and Regions) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I rather question the premise of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, about this process being exemplary and democratic. It seems to me that an arrangement which results in an appointed commission making its final determinations, which this House is simply invited to rubber-stamp or overturn, does not have the subtlety of the democracy that we are more used to in this country. The fact that this House has no power to suggest modifications to the Secretary of State is a limitation. I question whether it is really appropriate that the order should come before this House at all.

I realise, of course, that it is done entirely in conformity with the Scotland Act, but with the benefit of 12 years of that Act being on the statute book, perhaps we might consider that it is time for an amendment. This debate is at risk of turning into a debate about entirely different parliamentary measures over which we have control. I somewhat regret that.

It has to be said that the Explanatory Memorandum to this order displays a degree of tortuousness in interpretation of the Scotland Act that, despite some years of training and practice as a lawyer, I find almost impossible to unravel. The suggestion that the order has to be enacted in the terms in which it does as it,

“would otherwise be unable to give effect to the terms of the Boundary Commission’s report”,

is an argument of political necessity, not of law. The conclusion is that paragraph 6(1) of the Schedule to the Scotland Act,

“must be read so as to allow such textual amendment as any other reading would deprive the Scottish Parliament (Constituencies) Act 2004 … of any meaning”.

It may be that those Acts have not been well drafted and that we should be reconsidering their language. It seems that the order allows a very broad discretion that is perhaps hardly consistent with the legislative activity in which we are engaged.

There are other examples. One referred to by my noble and learned friend when he introduced the order is the procedure for dealing with by-elections under this order and the date when the order takes effect. We are advised that the administrators have said that that is a “localised risk” that could be “managed” should the need occur. That is hardly legislating with clarity. It seems to be providing a discretion that is inappropriate and questionably democratic. I doubt whether this is a model of how to proceed in amending the boundaries of Scottish constituencies. The next time we are looking at amendments to the Scotland Act, I strongly recommend that we consider whether this also ought to be brought within the purview of that amendment.

In passing, because no one has the power to alter these proposed boundaries, I have to say that although the order may respect local authority boundaries, it does not respect existing local authority boundaries in respect of the mainland highland constituencies, in that we have a vast north highlands constituency, which is part of the north highland region. It is considerably too large to be effectively represented by a Member of Parliament. We ought to give some thought to those considerations when we come to consider the Bill that will emerge from another place dealing with Westminster parliamentary constituencies. I profoundly hope that we do not reach a position of such rigid equality of membership that the differences of community and geographical extent are completely set at nothing. That would be entirely to alter the nature of the relationship between a Member of Parliament and his constituency. However, I realise that I am straying into the territory that was entered by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and that is beyond the remit.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, perhaps I may rise as a parvenu in this House—someone who I have learnt is neither wanted nor needed. I have been called many things in my life but “nouveau riche” is not one of them. I echo the points made by my noble friend Lord Foulkes about the nature of the process that has been undertaken in agreeing the boundaries for the Scottish Parliament. As the Advocate-General was speaking, I was reflecting on the fact that there is no end to the joy in the Scotland Office when such matters arise.

One of the sadnesses that I experience, having been out of this country for four-and-a-half to five years, is the extent to which the craft of politics has fallen into disrepute. It would be unfortunate if we managed to separate the representative—the Member of Parliament in the other place—from the history and the involvement that he or she has with his or her constituency. Anyone who has ever gone to a Boundary Commission hearing and has listened to some of the cases that are put will have heard the passion that exists on the part of Members of the other place for the constituencies that they represent.

My noble friend referred to the fact that the last speech made in Scotland by John Smith was to the Boundary Commission. As the Advocate-General is well aware, I was some weeks later to become the Member of Parliament for Monklands East and subsequently for Airdrie and Shotts, based on the argument that John Smith put forward that day at the Boundary Commission. I have to say that I was privileged to take his seat; I could never fill his shoes. The work that he did for the Boundary Commission was exemplary. Having been born and brought up in the constituency, I did not know the connection between Airdrie and Shotts and the covenanters, for example, but that is the nature of the involvement that people have with the constituencies that they represent. To seek to break that link is to further diminish the role of politicians in both Houses.

I understand that the coalition is intent on these measures and on removing the opportunity for hearings related to boundaries for the other place. It would be a regressive step. To operate just on the basis of numbers of constituents would be a fallacy. I have come back from Australia, where the size of constituencies can be startling. I once had cause to inquire of a Member from the Northern Territory about the size of his constituency. He said that he had 10,000 electors. I said to him, “But you must know the inside leg measurement of every one of your voters”. At that point, he replied, “Yes, but my constituency is the size of Portugal”. We do not quite have constituencies the size of Portugal, although the Advocate-General covered a vast area when he was a Member of the other place. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, covered a vast area in Caithness and Sutherland. Within those areas—

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

The proposed North Highland constituency would be larger than Belgium, if not Portugal.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

In some cases that might not be difficult, but I take exactly the point that the noble Lord has made.

In summary, it is easy for those looking on the proceedings of these Houses of Parliament to assume that we are all in it for number crunching and for our own nefarious purposes. However, people feel passionately about the places that they represent. If they do not, they should not even conceive of seeking to represent them in the other place.

The Advocate-General is a balanced and reasonable man. As a former Member of the Scottish Parliament, he will delight in pointing out how the procedures surrounding election to the Scottish Parliament are superior to that proposed for the future election of Members to the House of Commons. I hope that he will take back the strong views of my noble friends on this side of the House about separating the hearings system from the ability to set boundaries for the other place.