Police Reform

Debate between Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate and Lord Hanson of Flint

Tuesday 18th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I first echo what the noble Lord has said. This is not in any way directed at the performance of individual police and crime commissioners. There are many good people who have given a lot of commitment and time and, in many cases, have made significant changes. However, at the end of the day, we are looking at the governance model. In my view, it needs to move towards the mayoral model. Where we can do that, we will.

The genuine problem is that not every area is seeking to have a mayor at the moment and not all police authorities are coterminous with mayoral authorities. Those are issues that we will have to look at downstream, but the general presumption is to build on the models we have now, in London, Greater Manchester and the Yorkshires, to ensure that we firm up that mayoral accountability.

The police White Paper—which, as I have just confirmed to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, will be published before Christmas—will look at issues such as efficiency, a range of matters to do with the improvement of training, going back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Swire, and how we can improve performance outputs in policing. I will bring that back to the House before Christmas but, at the moment, I cannot stray too much into that area.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as a superintendent some years ago, I spent some time at the FBI academy in Quantico, studying the criminal justice system in the USA. This is where the idea of police and crime commissioners emanated from. Judges and district attorneys, not to mention county sheriffs, are elected by political parties. This goes right up the ladder, and we see today the FBI director being sacked by President Trump because he did not carry out his wishes. Incidentally, he also appoints the members of the Supreme Court. The Department of Justice is directed to carry out the President’s wishes.

Does the Minister agree that the rule of law is a precious thing to have been born out of Magna Carta, which places legal limits on government power? It evolved the idea of fair trials, habeas corpus and universal legal rights, and political parties should not be involved in political governance, which is evidenced by the low turnout in police and crime commissioner elections. Chief officers should be independent of party politics. I opposed the PCCs as president of the Police Superintendents’ Association and still do. I whole- heartedly welcome these changes.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can take my noble friend back to 2010-11, when the Labour Party, then in opposition, opposed police and crime commissioners in principle but fought the elections because when there is an elected position, you have to try to fight to fill it. We have looked at the issues of governance and at the issues that my noble friend mentioned. We think it is important that we have independence of policing, but we still believe that there has to be some oversight of that policing, of the budget and of the chief constable to make them accountable. That is why the directly elected mayor will have the responsibility, among many others, to appoint a deputy mayor, potentially, to run policing. In areas that do not have directly elected mayors, we will look to have an indirectly elected policing board comprising senior people from the council, but it is absolutely important that the integrity of that independence is maintained.

Independent Office for Police Conduct

Debate between Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate and Lord Hanson of Flint

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is the responsibility of police chiefs, police and crime commissioners, and mayors in areas where the mayors are responsible, such as the Mayor of Greater Manchester, the Mayor of London and others, to implement recommendations made by the IOPC. I assure the noble Baroness that, ultimately, the buck stops here.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that one of the principal complaints about the IOPC from the police service itself is the length of time that investigations take? Clearly, this is causing some concern.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. It is absolutely vital—this goes back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—that investigations are done speedily and on time, are publicly accountable, and that their recommendations are implemented. It is no secret to this House that the Government intend to produce a police White Paper in the new year that will cover a range of issues, including the standards mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. The recommendations made about the IOPC, and how the Government will respond to them, will be included in that.

Police: Firearms Officers

Debate between Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate and Lord Hanson of Flint

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is for the Home Office to make decisions on a range of issues. Rightly, I am not eligible to become the Crown Prosecution Service and determine what information it presents to a jury; nor am I in a position to be the jury in the trial because I have not been party to the information that was presented to it. It is for the CPS to charge and the jury to determine, and then—if a conviction takes place, which in this case it did not—for the judge to pass sentence and for the criminal justice system to manage that sentence in an effective and appropriate way. I hope the noble Lord will accept that his points are interesting but not for me.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, in 35 years as a serving police officer, many as a detective, I developed a very high regard for members of juries. I think we tend to not give them all the information. When I was the president of the Police Superintendents’ Association, we campaigned vehemently to change the law on the right to silence. Your Lordships may be surprised to know that when we interviewed prisoners who continually said “no comment”—noble Lords will probably have seen that happen on television —we were not allowed to give that information to the jury as it was felt that it would be too prejudicial. The law was changed and I think we have had a better justice system since then. Martyn Blake was acquitted—and what a catastrophe it might have been had he been convicted. Can the Minister say whether an appeal on the evidence we have heard today would have been put before the appeal hearing?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I know the noble Lord has great experience of policing, but he will also know that those policing matters, those charging decisions, that acquittal decision and any appeal decision are not for the Home Office. The issues that we will be examining are around police accountability and the issues that have arisen out of this case, but not this case. It is not for me to be judge, jury, CPS or, indeed, police. If I did all those things, this House would soon call me to order.