Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Report stage
Wednesday 19th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has been a matter that I have thought of as very difficult in this situation for quite a long time. I believe that the explanations that have just been given by the two speakers who went before me are vital in trying to get a settlement that will be sufficiently good for all the interests in Northern Ireland. If we are going to do that, it will be by a pretty full solution to a difficult problem.

In my view, there are no reasons just now to create more difficulty than we have to deal with. Therefore, I am very much in favour of what has been said in regard to the law about this and particularly the negotiations situation, which we need to solve. Negotiation is the only way in which we will get this right, and I hope and pray that the negotiations will be entirely successful and that the people of Northern Ireland will get a bargain that will work for them from now on.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord. I share his wish for a successful outcome to the negotiations that addresses the fundamental problems that are part of the Northern Ireland protocol. However, I fear that time is very short now and there is little willingness, from what I can see, on the part of the EU to address the fundamental points. It has put forward various mitigations but none of them addresses the governance issue which we are talking about today, none of them addresses the democratic deficit, and none of them addresses the fact that part of this United Kingdom in the 21st century will have laws made for it by a foreign institution, in its interests, over which no elected representation of that part of the United Kingdom has any vote or say. That is an outrageous position.

We have to address this point. The points that have been set out in the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, have gone to the heart of trying to address this matter by saying that we have a problem. I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said, that the most recent agreement had in it something that Theresa May’s agreement did not, which really was a role for the Assembly. He is right and reminds us that when people now tell us that Theresa May’s deal was a great deal for unionism and we should have accepted it, that was not the case. It did not have any democratic legitimacy, it created a regulatory border down the Irish Sea and it would have put Northern Ireland completely inside the customs union. A lot of revisionism goes on over these matters.

The problem is that although the agreement gives a role to the Assembly, it does not give it any democratic say. The issue of the democratic deficit cannot go away. You cannot have citizens of this part of the fifth-biggest economy of the world having laws made for them that separate us from the rest of the UK—and will separate us more and more over the years to come—and create differences, not just small regulatory ones but massive differences, to our economy when we have to align with the European Union while England, Scotland and Wales go down a different path.