Leader of the House of Lords

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 28th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with almost all that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has just said. It would be most unfortunate if we were not to deliver a unanimous view on this matter. The only difficulty I have with the precise terms of the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has pointed out, the options for the Prime Minister might take a little time. Therefore, if she was prepared to say “as soon as possible” as the conclusion, I think all of us could wholeheartedly agree with her.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for providing the opportunity for us to have this debate this evening. She is, it goes without saying, a distinguished Member of this House, and I have listened carefully to her and, indeed, to all noble Lords who have spoken tonight. I am very grateful to all noble Lords for the supportive comments that have been made about me personally. I am also grateful to the Constitution Committee under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton which, contrary to how some of us have sought to portray it, has set out, in my view, a helpful and factual report that has been constructive in explaining how the relevant legislation has come into play on this occasion. The legislation that we are talking about is, of course, the Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975.

I am the Leader of this House. While noble Lords may be concerned about my ministerial rank, nothing changes that simple fact. Nothing has changed in practice about how I represent this House within government, and I will do the job of Leader in exactly the same way as all my predecessors. Even though nothing has changed in practice, the Prime Minister has made clear that he shares the House’s view, expressed passionately again tonight, that the Leader of the House of Lords should,

“as a general rule, always be a full member of the Cabinet”.

He has confirmed that he sees the current situation as a purely temporary one that he will want to rectify at the earliest opportunity, and that he will certainly do so immediately after the general election if he is returned as Prime Minister and no opportunity has arisen to do so before then. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said that if the Opposition are elected, they too would change the situation at that time.

The principle at the heart of the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, that this House should be properly represented within government at the highest level—that is to say, in Cabinet—is therefore not in dispute. We are all agreed on that point. The question we are debating tonight is how and when this temporary situation might be corrected and what problems, if any, this temporary situation creates.

A significant problem that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and some others have identified is a risk, which was also identified by the Constitution Committee, that my status might detract from my authority in an intangible way and affect my ability to represent this House in the Cabinet. I will respond to that point as directly as I can. As I said during our short debate soon after my appointment, judge me on what I do and how I do it. My effectiveness in the job will rest on the quality of my arguments and my ability to put forward my case. If my arguments are no good and I cannot present a good case, it will not matter whether I am a full member of the Cabinet.

Noble Lords already have evidence that I can deliver without status and regardless of rank. I led one of the most contentious pieces of legislation in this Parliament through your Lordships’ House when I was no more senior than any Whip. In so doing, I hope I demonstrated that successful negotiation with other Ministers and senior civil servants is not all about rank.

David Cameron is the second Prime Minister and the third party leader with whom I have worked closely. I have never in my professional career shied away from giving unpalatable advice or expressing an opinion that those on the receiving end did not want to hear. I will continue to do that where I believe it is necessary for me to do so. If noble Lords do not believe me, they may speak to any of my former male bosses. Some of them are also members of your Lordships’ House.

I am an independent woman and a single lady. Noble Lords might want to think of me as the Beyoncé of your Lordships’ House. I none the less recognise that this is ultimately not about me. I understand the serious concern expressed about diminishing the standing of this House of Parliament. This House has already shown that it need not be affected by this temporary situation. In the days after my appointment, this House debated the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, on assisted dying. The following day the Telegraph commented:

“Yesterday’s discussion in the House of Lords was an example of Parliament at its finest”.

The Times headlined a similar editorial with two words: “Model Parliament”. All that said, the situation is temporary and the PM is committed to rectifying it by May next year at the latest if he is re-elected. The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, talked, however, of the Prime Minister having careless disregard in the matter of my appointment. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, also raised the constitutional concern.

It is important for me to remind noble Lords that it was the previous Government who removed the certainty of a full Cabinet member being in the House of Lords when they removed the Lord Chancellor from this House. The comparison by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, of this current, temporary situation to a permanent change is not one that I can accept. That change, the change of removing the Lord Chancellor from this House, has a profound impact. Indeed, the Constitution Committee’s report says:

“At the time of the 1975 Act it would have been assumed that at least the Lord Chancellor would always be a peer in the Cabinet”.

That change has had a profound impact on the membership of the Cabinet in terms of its representation from your Lordships’ House.

I turn now to some of the potential solutions that noble Lords have put forward tonight. I refer specifically to that which my noble friend Lord MacGregor made.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would disagree with the noble Earl’s suggestion that there is a difference in outcomes for children of same-sex couples, but that is a debate for another day. That argument, and the points he makes are not relevant to the amendments before us, which are about creating two different types of marriage. We are saying that there is only one institution of marriage, and both gay and straight couples who want to get married should be able to be part of that one institution on equal terms.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I am obliged to all those who have taken part in this debate, whether supporting or opposing my amendment. It is interesting to hear what people have to say. I quite understand that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, does not like the brackets, but they have been put in by Government in the Bill’s Title. I thought, what else can I do but accept the Government’s guidance on the matter? However, I think perhaps that that is not the noble Lord’s most important point.

My noble friend Lord Deben, in a characteristic speech, said that the distinction between the two types of marriage was universally recognised, so why should it be recognised in the Bill? If it is universally recognised, surely it would be right to recognise it in the Bill because it is founded on the absolute fact of what occurs. The two are distinct. I do not try to separate them; I just distinguish because they are distinct in fact, and nobody can alter that. The idea that I am trying to wreck the Bill is not correct, I am sorry to say—well, perhaps I am not sorry; I should be glad to say that it is certainly not correct. I want to recognise in the Bill a distinction which, according to my noble friend Lord Deben—and who higher an authority?—is universally recognised. It damages the Bill in the eyes of ordinary people when it is not seen that that is recognised.

My noble friend said that I went on at length about children. I am sorry if I went on too long, but it is a very important factor. Children are very much at the centre of the institution of marriage as it was—and is until the Bill is passed. They are very much at the centre, and indeed, as your Lordships know, in relation to divorce and all that, elaborate provisions were made for children. Children are very important to marriage. There is a statement about children in the Bill which I regard as very important. Paragraph 2(1) of Part 2 of Schedule 4 states:

“Section 11 does not extend the common law presumption that a child born to a woman during her marriage is also the child of her husband … Accordingly, where a child is born to a woman during her marriage to another woman, that presumption is of no relevance to the question of who the child’s parents are”.

Therefore, the situation is that when two women are married under the Bill, and one of them has a child, that child has the same status as if the woman were single. If that is not a distinction—it should be recognised at some point, whether in brackets or otherwise—I do not know what an important distinction can be. If the Government want to improve on the brackets, I shall be happy that they should do so, but I believe that there is a universally recognised distinction between the marriage of two men or two women on the one hand and the marriage of a man and a woman on the other. These are facts that depend on something outside, and impossible to move, or remove by this legislation. The Bill would be improved by people realising what it does and recognising this universally understood distinction.

My noble friend Lord Lester quoted from the dissenting judgment of one of the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States. He distinguished between the two types of marriage: the one slightly older and the more recent one. I want to include in the Bill recognition of that distinction. The quotation of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, seemed to imply the necessity for some form of sexual relationship in both types of marriage. I pointed out, and I think it has been accepted so far, that same-sex marriage is not gay marriage—it is quite wrong to describe it thus. It includes gay marriage, of course, but it is wider because it involves same-sex couples, whether gay or not. Platonic relationships are perfectly possible under the Bill.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

This is an extremely simple point, but possibly of some importance. Clause 11 (1) says:

“In the law of England and Wales, marriage has the same effect in relation to same sex couples as it has in relation to opposite sex couples”.

This is not correct as it stands, because there are all these provisions later in the schedules; therefore, the accurate enunciation of the law will be subject to the later provisions of this Bill. I beg to move.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend and, as is clear from today’s list, this amendment was debated as part of a group yesterday. My noble and learned friend gave me notice that he wanted to ask a question following on from the debate. I have been given an answer to his question, which I could read out, but I know I would not understand what it is I am reading, and I know we are keen to make progress. The most sensible course of action is for me to ask Parliamentary Counsel to reflect on the points that my noble and learned friend has made and I will then ensure that I write to him as soon as possible and then put a copy of that letter in the Library.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I am very grateful and am happy to withdraw the amendment on that assurance that Parliamentary Counsel will look at this.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

If anybody wished to table an amendment and your Lordships wanted to debate it, I would be happy to consider that debate and respond to it. However, the short answer is that it would not be acceptable because we want only one institution of marriage. That is what we are seeking to achieve. We do not want to distinguish between opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Before my noble friend moves on from that point, am I not right that different terms are applied to same-sex and opposite-sex marriage at different points in the Bill?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think my noble and learned friend referred to this point in an earlier intervention. I will probably cover it a little later, but I think he is referring to Clause 11(1), which states:

“In the law of England and Wales, marriage has the same effect in relation to same sex couples as it has in relation to opposite sex couples”.

That does not introduce a distinction between two different kinds of marriage.

As I understood the noble Lord, Lord Dear, to say, Amendment 9 in his name is intended to define the marriage of a man and a woman as a traditional marriage, and have that marriage registered as such by the Registrar General in a separate register. Traditional marriage of the type he is putting forward could be formed only by opposite-sex couples. Therefore, this amendment would create an unwelcome distinction in the institution of marriage. As I stated at Second Reading, the introduction of same-sex marriage does not redefine any existing or future marriage of a man and a woman. It is not necessary to protect that status.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think I will take my noble friend’s free legal advice and refer the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, to it. On that basis, I hope that I will be able to convince my noble and learned friend, who is also a very experienced lawyer, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I have been waiting for some time to intervene to prevent my noble friend having to answer all these questions but the priorities of the House required me to give effect to those who wanted to speak. We have had a very full debate and I thank my noble friend for the very detailed answers she has given on all the issues that have been raised. I am sure we will want to read very carefully what has been said. In the mean time, I am extremely happy to withdraw my amendment.

Equal Marriage Consultation

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I understand the points made by my noble friend. I can only restate what I have already said. As regards the Church of England or any religious faith, we are putting in place safeguards to prevent any change to their religious definition of marriage.

As to why we are doing this and why it is different from civil partnerships and allowing civil partnerships to take place on religious premises, while civil partnerships were a significant step forward, and were embraced and welcomed by many people, especially those who have taken advantage of a civil partnership, there is still a distinction between a civil partnership and marriage. We believe that marriage should be available and accessible to two people who love each other, and who want to spend their lives together, and that they should not be discriminated against just because they are of the same sex. That is why we believe that it is right that a same-sex couple should be able to marry and to define themselves legally as married, as do other people who have the same feelings for the one they love.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Apart from the name, what difference is there to be between a civil partnership, as enacted during the tenure of the previous Government, and the proposals made here?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The key issue is that two people of the same sex will be legally defined as married in the same way as two people of the opposite sex. There will be no difference in the definition of their relationship in future.