Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I do not have anything to add to give force to the argument that has been put so forcefully by my noble and learned friend and the noble Viscount. All I will do, if I may, is add an anecdotal note. In 1936, I believe, a former Attorney-General and former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Hewart, wrote a book called The New Despotism. He was worried about the very powers that we are talking about today being delegated in a dictatorial way to Ministers. If it was a new despotism then, what is it now?

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, the scope for regulation under the provisions that are in issue is very wide. It is an area in which there is, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said, a great deal of legislation already. I therefore hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to indicate some form of restriction that might be acceptable in relation to this particular power. In the debate that we had on Monday, he pointed out that the power would be used only in restoring, in effect, what might be lost as a result of our leaving the European Union and that, in particular, there is power under the European Communities Act 1972 to do a good deal under statutory provision that is not by primary legislation. I thought that, if that were the case, it would be a justification for using this particular method. In this case, however, there does not appear to be justification for anything like that. I therefore invite my noble friend to indicate, as far as he can, what restriction he has in mind and whether that restriction could be embodied in the terms of the legislation.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak and—I apologise—I have not taken a close interest in this Bill, but I was moved and impressed by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and my noble friend Lord Hailsham said. The mantra of taking back control means only one thing to me: it is Parliament taking back control. It is not Parliament conferring a blank cheque upon the Executive, from whichever party they are drawn. I am disturbed that this principle appears very much at risk.

In the previous Divisions on this Bill I voted for the Government. I did so because I have not taken a close and continuing interest in the Bill, as I indicated at the beginning, and because I have a real regard for my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, who I have come to know well. I respect him greatly and regard him as a Minister who has proper regard for Parliament and the constraints under which Ministers should operate. I feel for him on this issue but add my appeal to the brief but eloquent appeal of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern.

Taking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I very much hope that my noble friend the Minister will indicate that he truly appreciates the concerns of those who are apprehensive about an accretion of power to the Executive, and that he will, after discussing the matter further with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, come back at Third Reading with something that is acceptable throughout your Lordships’ House.

We are in difficult waters. This is a precursor to a long and I am sure complicated, but I hope not acrimonious, debate on the withdrawal Bill, on which the other place is coming towards the end of its deliberations. However, it is no part of the functions of your Lordships’ House to connive at the accretion of power to the Executive. Certain things should depend upon primary legislation, not the fiat of a Minister. I hope that my greatly respected noble friend Lord Ahmad will give me a response that will not oblige me to refrain from supporting the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is right to raise the point and I admire all noble Lords who have followed the thread. The reason I have gone into detail, as my noble friend has articulated, is that the range of amendments in this group is quite extensive. Also, as I have said before, it reflects the importance of the discussions we have had.

On the specific issue of Amendment 71A, on this occasion I regret that we are unable to meet the views of the noble and learned Lord. However, I hope that I have indicated at least in part that this is not a departure from the existing system. Indeed, it is something which has been applied previously and continues to be so. I hope, therefore, that I have convinced noble Lords that the Government’s proposed changes—aside from the differences set out by the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Bowles, which we have talked about and I appreciate and acknowledge—will ensure that proper safeguards are put in place in the Bill regarding offences, rather than removing the ability to create them and leaving a vacuum that we believe would weaken the UK’s anti-money laundering regime.

I hope also that I have convinced at least some noble Lords—I am looking behind me as well as ahead; it does not say that in my speaking notes. I have gone into detail but I believe that it was necessary to do so since, as I have always said, this is an important Bill. With those reassurances, I hope that noble Lords who have tabled amendments in this group will be minded to withdraw them.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Just before my noble friend sits down, can he help me on one point? There is already authority to make regulations in respect of money laundering which have criminal sanctions. If so, why is another provision to the same effect necessary? Can he help us further by explaining why it is necessary to do this not only for money laundering but in other areas where authority in primary legislation already exists to lay statutory instruments?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

What I have been saying in the examples I have quoted is that the use of the regulations is not something new.