Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

Perhaps my noble friend can give me some guidance. I think Amendment 40 is in this group. Reference is made in new Clause 33(1)(a) to a puffin pedestrian crossing regulation. We do not have puffin crossings in Kirriemuir. Do the regulations apply to Scotland? The amendment refers to revoking English and Welsh legislation on puffin crossings. Will my noble friend write to me to tell me what a puffin crossing is and what it is about?

[Lord Dunlop]

I am very happy to respond in writing to my noble friend.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for his contribution. Before I respond to his remarks, when I spoke previously, I inadvertently omitted to speak to some technical amendments. With the leave of the House, I shall do so briefly now.

The amendment to Clause 38 removes the words,

“vehicles used in connection with any reserved matter”,

as they are unnecessary. Even without these words, exempting vehicles used for reserved purposes would still be reserved. The deletion of these words will help to avoid any potential for misunderstanding arising from their unnecessary inclusion.

The amendment to the interpretation provision in Clause 38 is designed to devolve to the Scottish Parliament the subject matter of Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended by Section 19 of the Road Safety Act 2006.

The other amendments relate to work being done by the UK Government to prepare, as part of a long-standing project, a new set of regulations which will prescribe speed limit exemptions for vehicles used in a variety of circumstances which require a fast response. These amendments are designed to ensure that, with Scottish Ministers’ consent, the new secondary legislation includes exemptions from speed limits for vehicles used in connection with non-reserved matters and that those exemptions apply GB-wide. A considerable amount of work has already taken place to develop those regulations. If they are to be truly effective, change to relevant traffic signs will also be needed. The amendments will enable the Secretary of State, with Scottish Ministers’ consent, to make regulations which are GB-wide in their application and allow vehicles used for various purposes connected with devolved matters to have exemptions from road signs and general directions such as “keep left” and red traffic lights. The aim is to assist stakeholders and avoid duplication of the work already carried out by the Department for Transport. As with the amendments on parking, it is possible that there may need to be a small number of minor and technical amendments at Third Reading in this area. This is being explored by officials.

The Department for Transport will work closely with Transport Scotland on these regulations, so there is input from Transport Scotland. It would be unhelpful if they could not take advantage of the work already carried out due to a timing issue. The amendments are intended to resolve this, and allow Scotland to benefit from the new regulations as a starting point for speed limit and road traffic sign law post-devolution. I commend those amendments.

In conclusion, the amendments address an important issue which has been on our radar for some time, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Members of the other place and stakeholders who have brought this issue to a head. As I said, I am also grateful to the officials in both Governments, who have worked in discussion to pursue a drafting solution to this issue. These provisions will clarify the competence of the Scottish Parliament to legislate to regulate parking in Scotland. I also note the organisations Living Streets and Guide Dogs Scotland, who have recognised the amendments as bringing to a close the question of the Scottish Parliament’s competence in this area.

The Living Streets director said:

“The last minute amendment to the Scotland Bill removes the final barrier to outlawing pavement parking. Finally, the Scottish Parliament will have the power to protect older, disabled and vulnerable pedestrians from inconsiderate parking, which is fantastic news”.

Guide Dogs Scotland said:

“This is great news for people with sight loss, guide dog owners, wheelchair or mobility scooter users, and families with pushchairs. People with reduced mobility have been waiting a long time for legislation that can take inconsiderate parking off our streets, and allow them to get out and about safely in our communities”.

The response to these amendments reinforces the importance of this issue to the people of Scotland, and I am glad that the Scottish Parliament can now take steps to address inconsiderate and irresponsible parking.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I see that has received some approval, even from the Liberal Front Bench. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, has a skill in the Doric that is unrivalled in this House. When I got upset, my granny used to say, “Dinna fash yersel”—and I didna. I will be getting a note from Hansard at the end of this.

All I am seeking is a hope that when we do agree, as I think we should—my noble and learned friend Lord Davidson, talking about blind people and others, in a serious vein, eloquently put the case that this matter should be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament—we will not have expensive notices in Gaelic as well as in English.

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

I declare a case of anger solidarity with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova. He mentioned parking in Edinburgh to me at the weekend. But I notice, and your Lordships will see, that the amendment refers to “stopping on verges, etc”. That might be part of the Road Traffic Act 1988 but since the noble and learned Lord and I are both much acquainted with that great artery of Angus, the B955, which crosses both his parish and mine, I wonder quite what “stopping on verges” can be.

I quite understand that there could be problems in Edinburgh or urban districts with guide dogs and the rest on the pavements, but I also wonder whether there is a problem in Scotland which there is not in England. Perhaps when my noble friend the Minister winds up, he could explain whether there is a difficulty in Scotland, let alone in Edinburgh. For goodness’ sake, let us not get into speaking in Doric or Gaelic—let alone in the wilds of Angus—but is there a problem and can he sort it out in my mind? Certainly, as far as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, and I are concerned, there is a strong case of anger solidarity, and I hope my noble friend can resolve it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I could add to the anger solidarity by disagreeing with my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. The Gaelic language is an important part of Scotland’s culture. Indeed, when I was Secretary of State, I did a great deal to promote it. The whole point of devolving power to the Scottish Parliament, if we are going to allow for differences on matters such as road signs, is so that it can do stuff like this.

The noble Lord is constantly telling me about the importance of being sensitive to the fact that the Labour Party has been destroyed in Scotland, that people have voted for the SNP and we have to take account of those cultural differences, and why devolution is important. He cannot will the means and then complain about the results. The reason that Scotland is covered in signs in Gaelic is the same reason that Ireland is covered in signs in Gaelic. It is a wish on the part of nationalist Administrations to reflect the national culture. In that respect, I agree with them entirely. The more it creates interest in and understanding of Gaelic, and the more people realise the extent to which the Highlander should be on our conscience, the better, as far as I am concerned. I support the amendment.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to make a few brief comments on a very thought-provoking summary from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. In my speech on Second Reading, I mentioned the issue of scrutiny, as it is a great concern to me. As I said, what concerns me is the very heavy constituency load that members of the existing Parliament have, which means that they simply do not have time to perform proper scrutiny of the legislation, of which there is an awful lot in the Scottish Parliament. I would further develop the argument to say that, if we are lumping a whole lot more powers into the Scottish Parliament, that problem is going to be exacerbated. Therefore, the quality of legislation—and I speak as a resident of Scotland—will inevitably go down.

I make a further point on the skill set required for scrutiny. I had the great benefit of watching the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, prepare for today by just by chance being in and out of his office a few times. The care and precision with which he prepared today and the great scholarship that he has—reflected also by the noble Lord, Lord Norton—do not necessarily exist in the constituency MPs in the current Holyrood Parliament, but they are very necessary for the proper scrutiny of legislation, as we are doing today.

There is also an old adage about absolute power. It disappoints me that the Scottish Parliament has an absolute power today and is in many ways a more powerful Parliament and executive than this Parliament, where at least the mirror can be held up, and the Lords can say no—as they have several times already—which makes the Government reconsider things, which drives change for the better.

I want to address cost and perhaps answer the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. If it costs £200,000 per member, it would be £9.2 million; if it cost £400,000 per member, depending on what sort of Parliament you had, it would be double that, at just under £20 million. I think that the cost is likely to be in that area, but it would be small compared to the loss of things such as foreign direct investment or the economic damage inflicted by badly drafted and badly thought-through legislation. However, I have one concern: I am not sure that this Bill is the proper place for this set of thoughts, but it is certainly a very valid set of thoughts, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for raising them.

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

I am fascinated by the marvellous remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I was interested that he mentioned one of my great passions, which has occupied a good bit of the Scottish Parliament and is about sectarianism at the football. Indeed, a leading sheriff in Dundee pointed out that he regarded the legislation as “mince”—I hope that is not an abusive term. It came down to the fact of lip-reading whether a supporter was singing the correct words of “The sash my father wore” or other terms which might be abusive. Leaving that aside, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for trying to get a revising chamber for the Scottish Parliament.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was kind enough to refer to the superb Second Reading speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey. The noble Lord was quite tactful not to mention that the noble and learned Lord referred to sheep—that was one of the more moderate aspects. I appreciated what the noble and learned Lord had to say. One of the points he made in that the proposal is relevant to the amendment before us. It was about the standard of pre-legislative scrutiny by the committees of existing Members of the Scottish Parliament. If the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, believes that there is a field of 92 people in Scotland who can provide a higher standard of scrutiny—quite apart from the cost and the time involved—I salute him for his optimism, but I wonder whether, with all the guidance that many of these so-called amateurs might need, he will be able to find them.

On the other hand, I look around your Lordships’ House this evening and find my noble friend Lord Dundee. When it comes to cost, I am tempted to think of the chant “Up with the wallets of bonnie Dundee”. He might be paying, or some of us might be thought to be rich enough to pay ourselves, but I am not too sure. If your Lordships would care to glance at the Second Reading speech and comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, if I were a Member of the Scottish Parliament, I would repeat the wise words of the Vietnamese gentleman Do Duck Low and stay well out of the criticisms that have been quite justifiably directed in that area. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for his imagination and thought, but on the other hand I dread to think what the cost might be.

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, I remember that “Monty Python” always finished with the words, “And now for something completely different”. It used to throw my late father-in-law into a paroxysm because he could not stand “Money Python”, but we all insisted on watching it. He would think it was the end and give a great big sigh of relief, and then they would go, “And now for something completely different”, and end with exactly the same thing that they had been doing for the rest of the programme.

I have three points on this amendment. First, I support it. I did not support a second Chamber in the first place when we set up the Scottish Parliament because I felt that the powers we were giving it did not warrant a second one. Now that we are giving it extra powers, that warrants having a second Chamber as a balance to the first Chamber. Secondly, I do not believe, as my noble friend said, that the elections ought to be on the same day because there is a grave danger of the political make-up of the senate being exactly the same as the Scottish Parliament and that raises problems about what it will do and how it will be a counterbalance to the main Chamber if it is of the same political complexion. It would perhaps be more expensive to have the elections in between, but they could be on a day when other elections were taking place and, of course, if it were done my way electronically with an ID card, the cost would eventually be considerably less than at present.

Thirdly, if you elect people to a position, they will insist on having more power than my noble friend is prepared to give this senate. That is what happened in the United States. Believe it or not, the original Senate in the States was appointed and had little power; it had the same sort of powers that we have here. Once it moved to an elected system, though, it became increasingly powerful, and in the end was more powerful than the House of Representatives. That, I fear, is the danger with the senate that my noble friend is proposing: eventually you will have elections and they will insist on taking more power than the major body, which is elected by a different system.

I am a first past the post man first and foremost so obviously I would like the senate to be elected that way, along with the Scottish Parliament itself; we would not be in the fix that we are now if we had had first past the post in 2007.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

My Lords, it is now 44 years since I made my first humble speeches in your Lordships’ House and I think it is the fourth time we have discussed major events dealing with my homeland of Scotland. This evening I seem to be on a downward tide, very happy and content with much of what is in the Bill. It is interesting that the Scottish Parliament is now up and running and is a great success, and we see around us noble Lords who have served, such as my noble friend who spoke before me, and others who are still serving, with a dual hat.

We are discussing a different concept tonight from what I call the constitutional past in that we are doing something fairly quietly but apposite. We are downsizing from what I would call a federal block—known in Scotland as “Waste monster”, or Westminster—and looking at what is, and I hope will continue to be, a very successful devolved system in Edinburgh. We are looking at how these two Parliaments can react well and without too much friction. Before us this evening we have a decent stab—I will use that tactful term—to confirm what already works with the Scottish Parliament, but I worry about some particular gaps in that happy scene.

I commend the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on his fortitude in having sat here throughout the debate. In fact, he is one of a fairly large number of noble Lords who have not budged from their positions. I also thank him, my noble friend Lord Forsyth and others who sat on the committee that produced this report. My noble friend Lord Forsyth put things far more forcefully, if I may say, than I would be able to. This is a really excellent report on the financial aspects and indeed what I hope may be the fiscal framework. I will just consider two or three small paragraphs from the report of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick. We will be able to discuss them in much more detail when we come to the income tax aspect of the Bill.

If your Lordships glance at paragraph 160 of the Hollick report, there are the immortal words of Professor Holtham, who praises the Barnett formula saying that it is “extremely simple”. I agree with him, since my main motto, both in your Lordships’ House and out, is KISS—it is nothing to do with affection but is “Keep it simple, stupid”; I am only an accountant not a major lawyer. Above all, keep it simple.

I refer to paragraphs 120 to 133 in the Hollick report, which is beautifully put together and has been praised by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I am very interested in paragraph 122, which points out that so far the Scottish Parliament has made no use of the income tax powers. You might call me a cynical so and so, but I believe that is a mixed blessing since some of the thoughts I have seen in the Scottish media, both in print and in the electronic media, make my blood run cold.

In paragraph 130, there is marvellous advice from PWC, which I understand is one of the leading firms of chartered accountants. It points out, “For goodness sake, get the system right”. In three words, “Don’t rush it”. Those words, I hope, will be taken on board by my noble friend the Minister when he comes to wind up and indeed will colour my thoughts on what is before us this evening.

I come to paragraph 131 in the Hollick report. Although I shall be out of order and my noble friend on the Front Bench may kick my shins or do other things to me, I wish to pay the highest compliment to the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, whom I call my noble colleague. I am not too sure about the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, but I think that I and the noble Lord, Lord Smith, are the only two members of the Institute of Chartered Accounts of Scotland actually sitting in your Lordships’ House. As a member of the institute, I cannot praise highly enough anybody in Scotland who has done what the noble Lord, Lord Smith, has done in gathering politicians and every kind of economic outlook. He has seen Scotland on a global basis and what he has managed to do with his Smith agreement is worthy of the very highest praise. Certainly I bask in the mini-glow of the chartered accountants as a junior member with the noble Lord, Lord Smith.

I am interested in looking at the wise words, in paragraph 131, of Ms Charlotte Barbour, one of the tax directors of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. She pointed out that, as far as income tax is concerned, which is the main thrust of what I see in front of us this evening, there is the issue of identifying who is a Scottish taxpayer. The definition of that, she says, will be “difficult”. Well, in the words of the Bible, I say, “Verily, verily”—indeed, it will. My noble friend who is right in front of me and, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, and others may well remember that I was entitled to lead on the definition of a “Scottish taxpayer” in 1998. If your Lordships go back and look at the Hansard at that time, they will find that the Government had some difficulty in explaining to me and to the House why somebody on a ferry which was tied up at the ports of Cairnryan or Stranraer would, for the purposes of the Scotland Bill, be defined as being resident in Scotland overnight. It is there in black and white. I hope that it has been changed, and indeed there is room for it to be removed.

Paragraph 133 of the Hollick report refers to the fact that the definition of a Scottish taxpayer will be based on an individual’s main place of residence. I think it was the very kind lady from HMRC who pointed out that for the “vast majority” of the population this would be simple. Perhaps she is watching this debate on television this evening. If so, I ask her to look around at your Lordships. Perhaps I may quote a personal example. My tax affairs used to be dealt with in Dundee. I have one or two interests south of the border and, because of that, my tax details were then dealt with at Leeds and Shipley. I am given to understand that, because at some stage in my career I took paid employment as a Minister—in this House, not in the other place; no one elected me there—all my affairs are, and will be, dealt with in Cardiff. At the moment, there are three or four centres that deal with my affairs, and I am just a simple Scottish taxpayer. It is pushing at the limits of reality for an HMRC representative to say that this is going to be quite simple for every Scottish taxpayer. In my case, she might find that it is just a little more than that.

The Bill before us certainly provides the framework for something which is acceptable and reasonable, and which is very practical for Scotland, let alone for Scotland’s finances, and I hope that your Lordships will accept that the further detail can be brought forward in Committee. I congratulate the Minister on what he has done today in bringing everything before us but, above all, I congratulate my noble colleague—if I may call him that as a fellow accountant—the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin.