Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

I know that the Minister is a listening Minister; and the coalition Government have been known to change their minds, as recent events have shown. We would certainly welcome a change of mind on this matter, as we believe that it is the right thing to do.

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

My Lords, I see my noble friend Lady Hamwee is rising; she probably has much more expertise than I do. I would not want to spend more than about 22 seconds on this particular subject this evening.

I declare an interest straight off, in that under my roof there are not one, not two, but three rottweilers that live quite well. I have taken lessons from that immortal movie, “Crocodile Dundee”, in which he calmed the rottweilers. I am used to having dogs. Living in the wilds of Angus in Scotland, one goes out sporting with dogs; one has labradors and spaniels. I have also become acquainted with dogs in the course of my political duties. During 1974, I went off into Forfar. In the spare spaces there on the council estates were packs of large dogs. I was told, “For goodness’ sake, take care: you may get bitten”. I armed myself; in one pocket of my coat I had Smarties and small beans. In the other pocket I had Rolos and a large Mars bar. It may be incorrect—I will wait to hear from my noble friend and the experts—but I found that those forbidden, or not, substances were a particular help. On the second or third night that I was carrying out what I call political duties, I found that there were old friends who recognised that this was the man with the Rolos or the large Mars bar. As far as I was concerned, that kept dogs under control.

I do not know whether rottweilers are a particular prohibited type of dog; I do not think they are. I have read about the specialist activities carried out by my noble friend Lord Redesdale, and perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, on particular types of dogs. I am sorry; I have gone over my permitted time. I am very curious; perhaps the Minister, or somebody else, can advise me about,

“behaviourally risk assessed by a suitably qualified behaviourist”.

I am delighted that the noble Baroness has found, at least, a point of interest in somebody suitably qualified in canine behaviour, and perhaps even human behaviour. Could my noble friend write to me about that? As I say, I am grateful to your Lordships, because I declare an interest. I have all my fingers and toes after four years of three rottweilers.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I knowledge the progress made in extending the law regarding private property and dangerous dogs. In supporting the amendments, I do not wish to undermine the Government's proposed action but rather to strengthen it. I recognise that the noble Lords, Lord Henley, Lord De Mauley and now Lord Taylor of Holbeach, are fully in sympathy with the plight of the 23,000 postal workers who have been attacked and injured both physically and mentally by dogs in the past five years. They have been on the rounds, as it were, and witnessed what the CWU members are up against. Again, I fully acknowledge the involvement of Ministers.

I also appreciate that the Government wish to simplify and rationalise the law around anti-social behaviour. But in attempting this, I do not believe that they recognise the specialist requirements for dealing with dangerous dogs and their owners. There is insufficient focus on this in the proposed legislation. I will come on to the impact assessments in due course.

As my noble friend Lady Gale said, having met some of the parents of children killed and maimed by dogs, it is clear that the human cost is devastating. However, the economic cost is also worrying, with the loss of approximately 4,500 working days due to injuries sustained by postal workers. Campaigners feel strongly that the introduction of dog control notices would provide an effective preventive measure for alerting the authorities to the potential for dogs that could act dangerously in the future. In nearly every case, attacks have been the culmination of incidents that, if put together and acted upon, could have prevented that accident. The Government have argued that the new “flexible tools package” of orders will be as effective as the dog control notices introduced in Scotland and Northern Ireland, if not more so. However, the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, as my noble friend Lady Smith has already pointed out, does not agree with that argument.

Specific dog control notices would be a message for the dog owner to take action before an attack and would raise the profile and awareness among dog owners. Many of them exercise their dogs in public parks. They get to know each other and also know the good dog owners and the not so good ones. It would encourage a communal network. Issuing dog control notices should be a simple procedure. They could be issued by those trained to recognise examples of poor control. Action should be taken on the first occasion that a dog attacks anyone. It is the first time in studying for this debate that I have heard of this “one bite” rule or “one free bite” rule, which is appalling and trivialises the seriousness of the issue.

The PDSA has estimated that more than 1 million dogs display aggressive behaviour towards people and pets on a weekly basis. Its research shows that an overwhelming 87% of people believe that pet owners should face tough penalties if their dog attacks another person or animal. For the Government to introduce penalties for attacks on private property is commendable, but they are after the event, after the injury and after the death. Specific dog control notices would establish a framework to encourage better behaviour, preventing serious incidents and would establish a record of behaviour patterns.

The overall impact assessment concentrates entirely on the issue of making it a criminal offence to allow a dog to be dangerously out of control on private property belonging to the owner of the dog. That is hardly surprising, but it is concentrating on legal sanctions after an attack. As I have already said, many attacks are the culmination of behaviour that is well known in the community. The overall impact assessment then refers us to the specific impact assessment on these measures published at the same time as the Bill. That took a bit of finding. It dates back to 9 May 2013. I assume that it has not been updated. Looking at the specific impact assessment, the concentration is on replacing dog control orders with public spaces protection orders, with community protection notices replacing litter clearing notices and defacement removal notices. There is no mention of dangerous dogs, although I understand that it is supposed to be an overall umbrella notice which covers everything.

I realise that the subject of dog control notices has been debated in the other House, and despite all the major stakeholders supporting this and the proposals for compulsory microchipping, the Government have set their face against it. Obviously, local government is in a difficult position, as it is strapped for cash and cutting back on areas such as dog wardens. Therefore it is not surprising that it has shown no enthusiasm for dog control notices. However, the concern is that community protection notices would be a blunt and unwieldy measure. The danger is that they would be slow to serve and open to challenge in the courts.

The Minister of State, Norman Baker, indicated that,

“muzzling, neutering, microchipping, keeping a dog on a lead … can be required under a community protection notice”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/10/13; col. 682.]

If that is the case, why are the two impact assessments completely silent on this? Looking through the draft guidance for front-line professionals on the reform of anti-social behaviour powers, the section on community protection notices makes no reference to dogs. It does say that before anyone is issued with a community protection notice, the accused should be given a written warning—presumably posted through the letterbox by a postal worker. We have to get to page 48 of the 64-page draft guidance before the actual word “dog” is used, and that is only in relation to public spaces protection orders—the old dog control orders—so we are back to square one.

Thousands of postal workers have been injured, children have been killed and maimed, just over eight guide dogs are attacked and killed per month on average, yet the draft guidance to professionals waits for 48 pages to mention the word “dog”. There is a danger that what the Government regard as streamlining by introducing community protection notices is actually a lack of focus on this important issue. If there is no focus now, what hope will there be when its implementation depends entirely on local discretion and funding?

What further guidance will the Minister give on issues such as the definition of “out of control” and “dangerously out of control”? What guidance will there be when aggressive dogs are allowed to roam freely on the landings of communal flats, terrifying the neighbours? What steps will be taken if an owner in receipt of one of these new community protection notices simply swaps the dog for another? Will compulsory microchipping accompany a community protection notice? Nothing in the draft professional guidance gives us a clue. This is an area crying out for more effective steps to identify and deal with bad owners and poor dog control before someone is maimed and injured. I fully support the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with great interest to the previous debates and would once again like to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, for everything that he has done in this matter. I only wish his measure was on the statute book. We would, perhaps, not be having these debates.

I was also interested in Amendment 56MA, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, which has already been debated, because what I am attempting to do in my amendment is very simple. Perhaps at Third Reading, it could be tabled with part of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. I have already spoken to the Public Bill Office, and that would be a possibility because my amendment does not deal with penalties.

I want to define very simply what a responsible person is. The owner of the dog, which will be in a public place, should know the degree to which somebody they are asking to be in charge of the dog or dogs meets the requirements in my amendment. They should be capable of being responsible and in charge of the dog, whether it is on a lead or not. Many people can very satisfactorily control dogs that are not on leads. Likewise, with regard to muzzling, I want defined once and for all whose liability it is, what the requirements are and, above all, who an appropriate person might be. This is only a first step in a still-unfolding problem. I wish it was not. People have seen dogs—their own or other people’s—practically shredded in public places and parks. Very often, those in charge of them are attacked at the same time. It happens too often, but perhaps not sufficiently often for it to be an even bigger public issue than it is now. The potential is always great.

At the time it happens you need the reinforcements immediately. I live in a very well known park in London where there are big notices saying “no cyclists” and, in that particular area, “no dogs”, because children play on the grass in the summer. I have yet to see a single cyclist or dog owner being stopped. That is one small area, and I have not seen any very bad incidents. I have certainly encountered them with my own dogs and with other members of my family. In each case, the outcome has been ghastly and has lived with us and the remaining dogs for the rest of our lives.

I had the interesting experience of my daughter’s dog being seriously attacked in America. The other dog’s owner had no control of it and did not even attempt to control it. They rescued their dog and went straight to the police. The police came immediately and made an order on the spot for that owner never to have that dog not on a lead or not under complete control. I was very impressed with the speed with which that action was taken. My daughter never wanted to walk anywhere near that house again. I hope my noble friend Lord Lyell will forgive me for being jolly pleased that I am not his neighbour.

[Lord Lyell]

I reassure my noble friend that these dogs are wonderful so long as you take firm action. If she wishes to visit me, I assure her that she will escape totally unharmed and much loved.

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My noble friend knows how highly I regard him, but I really do not think I shall accept his invitation, which was made so gallantly.

I hope that my noble friend the Minister will have realised that this problem has continued to grow and grow since the 1991 Act, the passage of which I vaguely remember taking part in. The great problem with that Act was the naming of certain types of dog. It was also mentioned, at Second Reading, that there are now dog psychiatrists and that naughty dogs can sometimes have their whole behaviour changed. I have known only one of those and I will, wisely, not give the Committee his name. He was brought in because my two were little puppies and we had to find out who the strong one was. The strong one took one look at him, did not fancy him very much and turned away, taking no notice. The little flibbertigibbet did all these little clever things in front of him and he said, “Ooh, that is the main dog. That dog is certainly going to be the leader of the pack”. He subsequently wrote a chapter in his book in which he named my two “the terrible twins”. He based this on an incident when I was walking around with them on the lead at the local dog show. They had seen a Weimaraner that had attacked them in the past and they must have been very nervous. Everybody was laughing and when I looked around it was because one was on top of the other. That is why he called them the “terrible Oppenheim twins”. If you ever pick that book up, please put it down again and do not buy it.

This is a serious debate, on a serious matter, on which there is enormously strong feeling about things that can never be put right afterwards. I implore my noble friend to take note of what has been said and to try to meet, before Third Reading, the more modest proposals debated this evening.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Monday 6th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Would my noble friend allow me to point out to him that the contributions he made were always valuable, as were those of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, who was a member of the London Assembly at the time, and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, who was on the Committee of the Regions? I think that the Government should welcome this plethora of experience. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, also learnt a great deal and informed the House a great deal. I am sure that the Minister will want to take this away in order to ensure that your Lordships' House has up-to-date information about what is happening in other bodies, particularly those that the Government seem so determined to establish in their own model.

[Lord Lyell]

My Lords, before my noble friend replies, will she allow me 30 seconds of her valuable time? I am now in my 51st year in your Lordships’ House. I believe that the Lords spiritual provide a very effective, quiet and discreet view to me and, I believe, to your Lordships on various aspects of the matters that pass through this House in a quiet and civilised way. I hope that she may tolerate, at least, the Lords spiritual, and that they may remain, or that she will take this on board. As one of those who in Northern Ireland we call the minority community, who in Scotland are called left-footers, perhaps I should desist from that. I believe that the Lords spiritual, with all their traditions, have given service to your Lordships’ House and this Parliament for over 400 years and more. Can she possibly feed that in to the wonderful arguments that she is putting forward tonight?