Uganda: LGBT People

Debate between Lord Luce and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Luce (CB)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Warsi]

I get the distinct impression that maybe I am not needed any more. The noble Lord raises an important issue and it is one that I have raised at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. As the Minister with responsibility for human rights I have said consistently that the way in which we conduct ourselves nationally impacts on our international reputation. What we do internationally will impact on who we are as a domestic nation. Therefore, the noble Lord does make an important point. I would stress to him that, certainly, the Government take the issue of human rights incredibly seriously. It is a huge part of my brief and he will see the commitment in the work that the Government do.

[Lord Luce]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Luce]

My Lords, I must apologise to the Minister for trying to answer questions for her. Does she not agree that the Commonwealth is the right forum in which to discuss such issues, particularly as we have all signed the Commonwealth charter committing us to certain values and principles? Is that not what the Commonwealth is for?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am a supporter of the Commonwealth, as are noble Lords across this House. We are all realistic enough to acknowledge that despite the Commonwealth charter, which was supposed to be a watershed moment, there are numerous Commonwealth countries that do not live by that charter, including in their approach towards LGBT communities. It is, therefore, important that we use the Commonwealth as a vehicle but that we use all other vehicles available to us to ensure that these rights are protected.

Gibraltar

Debate between Lord Luce and Baroness Warsi

Monday 10th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for securing this debate and for the comprehensive way in which she outlined the many challenges that the Government of Gibraltar face. I shall try to deal with some of her specific questions. I also thank all noble Lords for their contributions, especially the noble Lord, Lord Luce, whose expertise and opinion on this matter I hugely respect.

Recent months have seen a number of further unhelpful moves by Spain to advance its claims towards Gibraltar, in particular incursions into British Gibraltar territorial waters and the introduction of unreasonable and illegal delays at the border. However, the position of the British Government is unequivocal: Gibraltar and its waters are sovereign British territory. They will remain so for as long as the people of Gibraltar wish them to be and we will continue to respond robustly, taking whatever action is necessary, to safeguard Gibraltar, its people and its economy.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for her outline of the situation. Our position on the sovereignty of Gibraltar is clear and unchanged: we will protect the right of the people of Gibraltar to determine their political future. The UK will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their wishes. Furthermore, the UK will not enter into any process of sovereignty negotiations with which Gibraltar is not content. I hope those comments are clear and unequivocal.

Gibraltar’s constitution reflects the principle that all peoples have the right of self-determination. The realisation of this right must be promoted and respected in conformity with the provisions of the charter of the United Nations and any other applicable international treaties. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Luce, that the British Government are confident of UK sovereignty over the whole of Gibraltar, including British Gibraltar territorial waters.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and other noble Lords asked what action had been taken and whether it could have been stronger. We have taken robust action. The Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have called their Spanish counterparts and we have summoned the Spanish ambassador on a number of occasions. We have made our concerns very clear and have acted in close concert with the Government of Gibraltar. We are strongly committed to a diplomatic solution and we do not believe that tit-for-tat escalation is in anyone’s interest. For example, incursions by the Guardia Civil which involved photography, filming and the circling of ships have been provocative actions and the United Kingdom has raised these at the highest level with the Spanish Government. Indeed, the Prime Minister raised the issue, for example, of border delays with President Barroso in August last year which led to the Commission sending a border monitoring mission in September. The Prime Minister again raised our concerns with Barroso in December last year.

A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Scott, asked about EU aviation legislation. We cannot accept a return to the pre-2006 practice of suspending Gibraltar Airport from EU aviation measures. We have raised this with the Spanish Government and the European Commission. We believe that the EU treaties are clear that Gibraltar should be included in EU aviation legislation. We have made our position on this clear to the Spanish Government and the Commission. Officials are working with UK MEPs’ offices to ensure that amendments in upcoming EU aviation legislation that would seek to suspend the application to Gibraltar Airport are properly responded to.

The noble Lord, Lord Luce, asked about the position of the Royal Navy. Under the Gibraltar constitution, the Royal Gibraltar Police is tasked with the enforcement of Gibraltar law in British Gibraltar territorial waters. The main tasks of the Royal Navy Gibraltar Squadron are to protect visiting warships and to uphold British sovereignty against unlawful incursions by other state vessels such as the Spanish Guardia Civil. We believe that differences with Spain concerning the water should be resolved by diplomatic and political means, not naval confrontation. Continued escalation is in no one’s interest, but what I say in terms of de-escalation in no way steps back from our commitment.

[Lord Luce]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but perhaps I may pass on one piece of experience from my time. There was a serious fishing dispute and a large number of incursions were being made. The situation drifted and got worse and worse. It was only when at the last moment a Spanish vessel was detained and 14 Spanish people on board were arrested that the dispute was brought to an end. All I am asking for is the robust defence of our sovereignty in those waters.

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an incredibly important point. In response to the increased number of maritime incursions, the Ministry of Defence has deployed additional personnel to Gibraltar to enhance the response capability and resilience of the Royal Navy Gibraltar Squadron. Royal Navy ships will continue to visit Gibraltar regularly in relation to operational and training activities, reflecting its utility as a permanent joint operating base. All elements of the situation, including the maritime security capability available to the Royal Navy Gibraltar Squadron, are kept under review. Should it be necessary, the Ministry of Defence will provide additional assets to the squadron and augment our broader maritime posture as necessary. That issue was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan.

My noble friend Lady Hooper is right to say that the border delays are unacceptable and damaging to both the Government of Gibraltar and, indeed, to Spain. The Commission’s letter to Spain following its border mission last September made clear that the intensity of Spanish checks was unjustified. The Commission made recommendations to both sides to improve the flow of people and traffic, and we remain confident that Spain has acted and continues to act unlawfully. We are providing evidence of that to the Commission. The Commission undertook to review the situation after six months following its border mission, and the review will take place at the end of this month. We are providing evidence of continuing border delays in preparation for that review.

My noble friend Lord Patten specifically asked about the issue of the opening of a diplomatic bag. We did indeed summon the Spanish ambassador and subsequently received assurances that it would not happen again, and to date it has not. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, asked about ministerial visits, as did a number of other noble Lords. There have been several ministerial visits to Gibraltar since 2010, the last one having been made in December last year by the Minister for the Armed Forces, and of course their Royal Highnesses the Earl and Countess of Wessex paid a highly successful visit in 2012. Those visits will continue.

I hear what my noble friend Lord Patten had to say in his description of Spain’s behaviour, but as the noble Baroness on the Front Bench opposite also said, Spain is of course still a valued partner in both NATO and the EU. It is in the interests of both our countries and indeed in the interests of Gibraltar for that co-operation to continue. Spain says that it has an excellent relationship with the UK, but it is difficult to see how Spain’s escalation of the dispute over Gibraltar is not going to impact on the wider bilateral relationship. That is a point that we have made to Spain on numerous occasions and we will continue to pursue solutions at this stage through political and diplomatic means.

However, there should be no doubt of our commitment to the people of Gibraltar. Their wishes and their rights are paramount and we will continue to stand up for them. To achieve a solution it is our long-term aim, shared by the Government of Gibraltar, to return to the trilateral forum referred to by the noble Baroness, from which the current Spanish Government withdrew on taking office in December 2011. In the interim we have reiterated to the Spanish Government the Foreign Secretary’s proposal which he made in April 2012 to hold ad hoc talks involving all the relevant parties. We welcome the interest that was shown in that proposal and urge all parties to meet around the negotiating table and engage in constructive dialogue.

We have heard in the debate about a number of politically motivated actions taken by Spain to try to pressurise Britain and Gibraltar. We have also heard that the Government have taken robust action in response, and we will continue to do so. But we are also committed to trying to tackle the underlying tensions through a process of dialogue that will give the people of Gibraltar a voice. As we enter negotiations it is particularly important that all sides are seen to be taking positive action. We welcomed the decision by the European Commission to send a border monitoring mission to Gibraltar in September last year, but these missions will be successful only if the follow-up work, such as implementation of the recommendations that were made by the mission, is done in the same way that the Government of Gibraltar are doing.

At the heart of this issue is the right of the people of Gibraltar to determine their own future. The current constitution of Gibraltar already includes the assurance that the UK will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their wishes. Furthermore, this Government have repeated the assurances given by the previous Government that the UK will not enter into a process of sovereignty negotiations with which Gibraltar is not content. For as long as the people of Gibraltar wish to retain British sovereignty, we will continue to work with their elected representatives to ensure that they can pursue their legitimate interests unhindered by unreasonable and illegal actions by any nation, but of course most recently by Spain. However, it is also clear that co-operation between Gibraltar and Spain offers many benefits to people on both sides of the border. Fostering that co-operation remains in everyone’s interests, and with the support of the Government of Gibraltar, remains our long-term aim too.

Gibraltar and Spain

Debate between Lord Luce and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that you have the McNally and Warsi show today.

We welcome the fact that the Commission has put Spain on notice and has made recommendations to the Spanish Government to improve the functioning of the border, which, if implemented, will reduce delays. We have published the Commission’s letter to the UK and Gibraltar and we encourage Spain to do likewise. Chief Minister Picardo has welcomed this and has confirmed that Gibraltar will act on the Commission’s recommendations.

[Lord Luce (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply and to the Prime Minister for his strong support for the Gibraltarians. Will the Minister accept that, having visited Gibraltar at the invitation of the Gibraltar Government this month, and as a former governor, I can confirm without any doubt that border delays by Spanish authorities in the past few months have been not only disproportionate but a deliberate abuse of human rights and freedom of movement on a scale that would be totally unacceptable in any other part of the European Union and in which local Spaniards as well as Gibraltarians are suffering?

Will the Minister also accept that an average of five Spanish incursions a day into British-Gibraltar territorial waters could at any moment lead to a serious incident? Therefore, will the Government now demonstrate by deeds and not just words that we will exercise our responsibilities to Gibraltarians against this Franco-ist style intimidation by taking appropriate legal action now, by ensuring the Commission’s recommendations on broader traffic are implemented speedily by Spain, and by giving the new governor and commander-in-chief adequate resources to uphold British sovereignty?

[Baroness Warsi]

I thank the noble Lord for that further question. Of course, he comes to these matters with great expertise and experience from his involvement with Gibraltar. We are not surprised at the Commission’s conclusions in relation to border issues there. Of course, the border operated more smoothly than normal when the Commission was visiting. But I agree with the noble Lord that there are huge challenges and there continue to be huge delays at the border. We remain confident that Spain has acted, and continues to act, unlawfully.

I hear what the noble Lord says about action, but although all our options are on the table, we feel at this stage that it is best to pursue this matter through diplomatic means. It was for that reason that, after a further lengthy incursion, the ambassador was summoned to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office yesterday where we made our views clear to him.

Gibraltar

Debate between Lord Luce and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 10th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Luce (CB)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I declare an interest as a former Governor of Gibraltar.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to uphold the sovereignty of British Gibraltar territorial waters through the Royal Navy’s response to unlawful incursions and our diplomatic protest to the Spanish Government. We are maintaining strong diplomatic pressure on the Spanish Government to de-escalate tensions and to remove unlawful additional checks at the border. The European Commission sent a monitoring mission to the border at our request on 25 September, and we await its conclusions.

[Lord Luce]

Does the Minister agree that as democratic partners in the European Union and NATO, the Spanish Government, rather than embarking on a policy of undemocratic Francoist type bullying of Gibraltarians, both at sea and on the border, would do well to follow the example of the previous Spanish Government, which embarked on constructive policies of joint economic collaboration between Spain and Gibraltar bringing advantages to the citizens of both Gibraltar and Spain in that region? To that end, will she say whether the Spanish Government have agreed to proposals to resume a dialogue and, if that is to take place on practical issues to do with Gibraltar, will the Gibraltarians be full participants in these discussions?

[Baroness Warsi]

I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord in relation to Gibraltar, during his time at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and as Governor of Gibraltar. He is incredibly familiar with incidents that arise between Spain and Gibraltar. We are entirely clear that this matter should be resolved politically. I take the noble Lord’s point about both of us being members of the European Union and I completely take his point that this matter has to be resolved in accordance with the wishes of the Gibraltarians.

Kenya: Kenyan Emergency

Debate between Lord Luce and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I do not intend to answer this question with a view to reopening the debate about the rights and wrongs of that period. Nor do I feel that it is appropriate for me to comment on how the Kenyan Government should respond to this.

[Lord Luce]

My Lords, since the Government have decided to contribute to a memorial in Nairobi to the victims of torture during the Mau Mau emergency, would it not be best to put this whole historic tragedy behind us by contributing to a memorial to all those who suffered—Africans and Europeans alike—during that emergency?

[Baroness Warsi]

I know that the noble Lord comes at this with great experience. If I am correct, he was there during the emergency period. It is something that I can take back but at this moment the commitment that has been made has been for this particular memorial.

Bahrain

Debate between Lord Luce and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

Certainly, we have these specific discussions regularly around freedom of religion. I spoke with the Foreign Minister when he was here this week specifically about that issue, and we had a lengthy conversation about the Shia-Sunni dynamic in Bahrain. We also spoke about historic coexistence between these two theologies within Islam. Indeed, we had a lengthy conversation about my own history when I explained to him that I was half-Sunni and half-Shia.

[Lord Luce]

While acknowledging the importance of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, would the Minister give some credit to the Government of Bahrain for setting up last year a very distinguished international commission on human rights, which at the end of the year made over 170 recommendations, of which the Government have so far decided to implement 140? Should we not give some credit to the Government of Bahrain for that?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point. Indeed, today is the anniversary of the publication of those first ambitions set out in the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry. He is right when he says that 143 of the 176 recommendations were accepted—and, indeed, a further 13 were partially accepted. Bahrain is trying to make progress on these matters, and we are supporting it in doing that.