Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Barker

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others. I was here for 20 years during the struggle for single-sex wards, and it was a notable achievement of the Benches opposite that they got there. I remember, in those long debates, getting a real understanding of the distress that women felt at being made to suffer in mixed-sex wards. I do not think it is right to destroy all that just in the cause of a small group of patients.

The rights of women need to be considered alongside those of trans people. Both matter, both are important, and we should not, as Stonewall has sought to do, bend the law to impossible interpretations and impose that covertly on the National Health Service. We should try openly to discuss this difficult issue and arrive at a compassionate solution that does our very best for all patients. I have faith that if the Minister promises that, we will get that.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used the important word “contention”—a contention that there is a tension between the rights of women and those of trans women. He and I disagree about that because I believe that they both deserve to be treated properly and respectfully. I believe that the Equality Act enables that to happen.

It is that Act which enables there to be single-sex provision. It is precisely because there are occasions and times when it is important for that to happen that we have to embody it in law, otherwise it could not exist. That is why under the Equality Act there is a specific statement that there should be safeguards in place, that there are special circumstances where treatment needs to be sex-specific, and that where it is assessed that a trans person should be put in an otherwise gendered ward, such departures are allowed but they need to be proportionate to achieving “a legitimate aim”. Like my noble friend Lady Brinton, I do not believe that making assumptions about a person because of the way they look is a legitimate aim.

I have listened carefully to all the speeches that have been made, and they have contained some very powerful contentions and assertions. What they have not contained is any evidence at all that this is a significant problem in the NHS. The amendments would cause a significant problem in the NHS—for all patients, not just trans patients, if one thinks through the implications of what has been written in them.

Day to day, NHS staff routinely have to deal with patients of all sorts, with all sorts of difficult problems, and as professionals they make judgments day in, day out about what is appropriate care. Unless and until there is significant evidence that backs up the assertions and contentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, and the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I believe we should leave them with the guidance that has worked perfectly well up till now.

Changing and Toilet Facilities in Public Buildings

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Barker

Monday 24th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, this debate has been going on for about 50 years; first, on television, when Jan Morris was asked about it. The unfortunate thing is that, in those 50 years, we seem not to have accumulated any more information or evidence on which to base the debate. We are stuck having the same discussion over and over again. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Lucas: what purpose is served by having this debate over and over again in the same terms? Various points have been made this evening which really are a proxy debate for the Gender Recognition Act. I could take issue with many of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, but I do not have time to do that this evening.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that he might bear in mind when making his criticisms of Stonewall and the Fawcett Society that they have repeatedly had to face the sort of intemperate remarks that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, used to express his very firmly felt view. To what extent are we moving the issue forward each time we have this debate? I do not think that we are, and I do not think that we are doing women any great favours by increasing their fears without an evidence base on which to do so.

I was hoping that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, was going to come up with some data and research to back up his assertion, but he did not. So, I ask him: what research has been done on crimes recorded by types of unisex toilet? Was there a breakdown according to the type of crime—harassment, assault or breach of the peace? Is there any research that tells us whether people are more inclined to report crimes in mixed-sex facilities because they dislike them, as he outlined? Is there a distinction between the number of crimes committed in mixed-sex facilities in different venues—pubs versus museums, for example?

It seems to me that we need to do two things. First, we should look at America, where these bathroom Bills have been brought in. Rather than being policed, there is, frankly, a vigilante approach. In those cases where people take it into their own hands to decide who is conforming to the law and who is not, it is quite often based on people’s physical outward display—so lesbian women who look very butch get challenged going into women’s toilets. I do not think that that is what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is intending, but it is a potential consequence.

We are proposing to take away from trans women a right that they already have: trans women use women’s toilets all the time, and so far, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—

[Lord Lucas]

My question was about giving all men access to women’s toilets, and the undesirability of that.

[Baroness Barker]

I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas: he might have seen in the briefing pack provided by the Library authorities the article by Andrew Gilligan when he was a Times journalist. He made a rather crude FOI request about different types of crimes, and he concluded that it is men whom women should fear: it is not trans women who are the perpetrators of the crimes against them. Unfortunately, as we have seen in this short debate, the noble Lord’s intent gets twisted, and we cannot get the kind of rational debate that he wants.

I ask the Minister: since there is no evidence that the Equality Act 2010 is having a negative effect and putting the rights of trans women and women at odds with each other, does she believe that it is right to keep the Equality Act, given that it affords protection to both women and trans people, and will the Government make sure that they do not water down those legal protections?