Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, before I turn to what I have prepared, I have to say that it is a real privilege to be in the Chamber today to listen to the brave speech by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, which was searing in its honesty, and, equally, to the evidence-based approach by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I thank those who have sent me their briefings, particularly the BMA, and Professor Paul Johnson of the University of Leeds for his advice and support.

It is an honour to offer my wholehearted support to the chief aim of the Bill, which is to prohibit sexual orientation and gender identity conversion therapy. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, for her tireless work and her introduction in bringing the Bill forward.

It is LGBT History Month. In that regard, I remind all noble Lords that what we now call conversion therapy is not a new phenomenon but something that has a very long history. As the Bill makes clear, conversion therapies are practices aimed at individuals or groups which, based on assumptions about the value—I emphasise “value”—of different sexual orientations or gender identities, attempts to

“change … or … suppress a person’s … sexual orientation or gender identity”.

As I said, such practices sadly have a long history and have taken many different forms and contexts, including barbaric interventions using chemicals, electric shocks and brain surgeries. We tend to think that those dark, brutal days are long behind us. Many of the torturous practices deployed in pursuit of converting LGBT+ people are indeed historical relics, but what is not long behind us and still very much part of our society—as sadly witnessed in the Chamber this morning—is the belief fervently held by many that some sexual orientations and gender identities are less valuable and less desired than others. It is that enduring belief that underpins today’s manifestations of conversion practices.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

I will not take that intervention.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

I say to the Government Whip that I have an advisory speaking time of five minutes. If he allows me the two minutes over that he has given to others, I will take the intervention.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord makes a most serious accusation that there are people who have spoken today who do not honour LGBT people as full members of society, worthy of respect at all times. I have no evidence of that in my conversations with anybody who has spoken today or, indeed, those who are going to speak. I know that this is not a universal society but, within this House, we should be accorded the assumption that we are with the noble Lord and that his great struggles have been rewarded in people’s attitudes.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

I note that the noble Lord is speaking after me and perhaps could have used his time to make those points.

As if the point has been made for me, there is an enduring belief that underpins today’s manifestations of conversion practices that hide out in the open and operate under the seemingly positive terms of “therapy” and “other options”, while utilising ideas of rights and freedoms to continue to harm LGBT+ people. Those operating such practices may be being emboldened in a context where there is growth in hatred against LGBT+ people.

Just two years ago, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe condemned with particular force the extensive and often virulent attacks on the rights of LGBTI people, sadly singling out the United Kingdom for special mention. The parliamentary assembly recognised that there is rising hatred throughout Europe and deplored the

“stagnation and even backsliding in progress towards LGBTI equality”.

Stagnation and backsliding on prohibiting conversion therapies is unacceptable and disgraceful. The Bill reminds us of the need to tackle these practices now, as so many other countries have rightly done. I therefore support the Bill as a further step towards recognising and protecting the fundamental rights of all LGBT+ people, which are not in conflict with the rights of anyone else. LGBT+ people pose no threat to themselves or others, and trans people do not pose a threat to themselves or others. The blatant misrepresentation and dehumanisation of trans people in particular must be ended.

I end with this quote: “We need to be kind to trans people. We need to be understanding of their experiences. We need to be supportive of their choices. And we need to be clear that they are welcome in our society, just as everyone else is”. This was said by Theresa May, then Prime Minister, in 2018, addressing the Conservative Party conference. Since then, matters have got worse. In the words of Brianna Ghey’s father, “the dehumanisation must stop”. If one person suffers conversion therapy, that is one person too many. Conversion therapy must end.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, this is Second Reading: we are not time limited. I hope that noble Lords who need more than five minutes will feel free to take it.

I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, just said in quoting Theresa May. I share Room 23 with my noble friend Lord Hayward, and he has discussed with me the conversion therapy experiences of his friend, Matt Hyndman. He says of him, “I do not know how Matt is as normal as he is, given what he went through”.

My knowledge and respect of my noble friend are such that, even if I had not already been in that position, I would undoubtedly come at the Bill thinking that it was a correct and noble aim to deal with something which is clearly perceived as an evil and experienced as such by many people—I was interested to hear what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, had to say about her experiences of it from a slightly different angle—but I have deep concerns with the Bill as drafted.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, said when she introduced it, we need a clear vision of what practices are permitted and where the line falls. She discussed this in terms of a predetermined outlook and coercion being wrong, but that is not how I read the Bill as it is; I do not see those lines in it. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said that open, questioning conversations should be permitted; I quite agree, but I do not see that in the Bill. I share the concerns of my noble friend Lord Sandhurst and the noble Lord, Lord Winston.

We need to get definitions right. Sexual orientation in English is who you are attracted to sexually. That obviously includes sexual attraction towards children and His Majesty’s Prison Service invests a lot in conversion therapy where that is concerned. The Equality Act confines sexual orientation in much more narrow terms, and we need that definition in the Bill.

We should also take the opportunity to define sex, making it clear, along with recent court decisions, that this is a matter of biology—male and female, men and women. We should define gender, so that it clearly has a different use—the social and cultural attributes generally associated with a person of a particular sex: masculine or feminine. We need to rid ourselves, particularly in the context of this Bill, of the confusion that has arisen between the use of those two terms. In particular, in this Bill we need a definition of gender identity. My noble friend has already drawn attention to the Scottish draft. We are legislating about gender identity; if we are doing so, we need a really clear definition of what it means. In ordinary usage, it appears to be a very wide concept, and I hope that proponents of the Bill will feel able to contribute to a close definition of this.

We also need protections. We have all received, I think, an email from the BMA. I think it is being hopelessly optimistic. Other jurisdictions have specific protection for therapy; it is clearly needed in the context of the Bill as it is worded at the moment. We also need protections for parents; many others have suggested that parents, in their ordinary discussions with children, should not be criminalised by this Bill. The whole process of childhood is one of maturation, ceaseless change and experimentation; children can take on really strong identities that do not persist. Most parents of teenagers are actually delighted that they do not. It is not right to not be allowed to argue, to discuss and to be broad in one’s conversations and directions to children. The Bill should not criminalise that, as I believe it does at the moment.

We need protection for religion; again, that is common in other jurisdictions. Above all, we need to make it clear that the process of affirmation is conversion therapy; taking something in a really young child and saying, “That means that you have a particular future, determined already at age four” is wrong. That is not what child development is about, and we should be extremely wary of picking a child early and freezing their development in that way, particularly when it involves chemical castration and physical mutilation. If there is one thing that this Bill, as amended, might achieve, it is making sure that that is the criminal offence, not parents seeking to help their children develop.