Special Educational Needs and Disability Code of Practice: 0 to 25 years
Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Lord Nash(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Low of Dalston
May I, too, ask a question of the Minister? May I take him back to the question of disabled students in higher education and their ability to challenge the provision that is being made? I think that the Minister said that they would need to go to court. I assume that that would be by way of judicial review; and, of course, that is going to be much more difficult now that the scope of judicial review is being so much curtailed and the availability of legal aid for judicial review is so much reduced. That is going to significantly undermine the ability of disabled students to use the courts to resolve these problems. I wonder therefore if the Minister would be willing to give further consideration to a more substantial right of redress for disabled students in higher education.
Children and Families Bill
Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Lord Nash(11 years ago)
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Lord Nash
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, makes her point powerfully and well. I entirely agree with her about the necessity of changing the culture and that in some cases we may be dancing on the head of a pin and what matters is the practicality at the coal face. We need to make sure that we attempt to do this practically and fairly so that we do not unreasonably advantage one group of children over another, as my noble friend Lady Perry said. We will try to ensure that, with further dialogue between now and Report, we all understand where we are on this.
Lord Low of Dalston
I did not quite follow the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, made when she talked about the danger of privileging children with special educational needs over other children. The fact is that we have a separate system that children with special educational needs can get into, and if they do not have them they cannot do so. However, for those who can get into the system it is surely right that it is the best possible system that we can make it and is immune from criticism on the sort of grounds that have been advanced this afternoon regarding the need for a single point of redress.
Children and Families Bill
Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Lord Nash(11 years ago)
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Lord Nash
As I have said, there are very significant duties around disabled children. The plan is not intended to affect that. Amendments 162, 163 and 164 would prevent such local decision-making, to which I have just referred, creating an individually owed duty prioritising the social care needs of children with SEN over the social care needs of other children in need.
Similarly, Amendments 143 and 144A should not stand. Social care provision is defined deliberately broadly in the Bill. Clause 21(4) includes any provision required under the Children Act 1989 or the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 and therefore will be included in the design of the local offer. It is only where that provision is reasonably required by the learning difficulty or disability of a child or young person that it will have to be included in the EHC plan.
Amendments 143 and 144A would require any services provided under the 1970 Act to be included in the EHC plan. However, the vast majority of services for disabled children that are provided under the 1970 Act will be reasonably required by the learning difficulty or disability of the child and therefore must be included in the EHC plan anyway.
On Amendment 143, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Low, we are not convinced that there should be a requirement that all services provided under Section 2 of the 1970 Act must be included in EHC plans regardless of individual circumstances. EHC plans are for children and young people with learning difficulties or a disability that gives rise to special educational needs. Where this also gives rise to health and care needs, that must be included in plans so that a co-ordinated approach can be taken across services. Where there are unrelated health or social care needs, it may or may not be appropriate to also include them in an EHC plan, for example, depending on whether the child or young person would benefit from a co-ordinated service response. I believe that those decisions should be left to local professionals, in full consultation with children, their parents and young people.
At the same time, Amendment 144A would remove the important discretion the Bill gives to the local authority to decide whether provision made under Section 17 of the Children Act should be included in the plan, where it is unrelated to the child or young person’s learning difficulty or disability. This discretion is essential as there may be circumstances where the children’s interests that we are trying to meet require that we do not bind the hands of local services in this respect—for example, where there is provision related to child protection, which is highly sensitive and is not always appropriate to include in an EHC plan. Whether or not social care provision is linked to the learning difficulty or disability of the child or young person, it will continue to be provided in accordance with existing legislation.
Concerning my noble friend Lady Gardner’s point about there being a possible gap between adult and children’s social care, I reassure her that young people aged 18 and over who are eligible for adult social care will, under provisions set out in the Care Bill, have a statutory care plan. For young people with SEN, our intention is that this should form the care element of the EHC plan. Both Bills contain provisions that will significantly improve the transition between children’s and adult social care. In view of what I have said, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, we have had an extremely good debate with some very cogent contributions from everyone who spoke in support of the concept enshrined in this group of amendments: that there is not a lot of point in specifying provision if there is no possibility of enforcing it. As I see it, my amendments were seeking only to give effect to the integrated approach between education, health and social care that has been the Government’s vision ever since they published the Support and Aspiration Green Paper.
Initially, the Bill simply contained provision for education but the department was badgered about putting in an integrated approach, so it badgered the Department of Health and, in due course, got it to cave in. A health provision was put in but, for some reason, we do not seem to have had the social care provision inserted at the point of provision. That seems extremely odd since, as has emerged in the debate, there are already provisions in the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act for ensuring the provision of social care services anyway. I am not quite sure what the difficulty is in delivering social care, when there are already those statutory obligations in that Act to lock this legislation on to. It seems clear that there should be no difficulty in bringing in the social care provision, using the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act as the vehicle.
The fact that needs are limitless and that it is wrong to privilege some children over others has been advanced by the Minister as a reason for not unifying the legislation. However, it seems to me that that splits off the enforceable obligations relating to social care at the wrong point. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, if social care provision is specified in the plan then it should be provided. Otherwise, what is the point of the plan? If the authority thinks that it cannot provide certain services or cannot make certain kinds of provision, it should not put them into the plan. Providing for things to be specified in the plan without providing the legislative framework for securing the provision seems to be a mistake, and that view has prevailed throughout the debate.
There has been a strong head of steam in the debate about the need to provide an integrated legislative framework for enabling the enforcement of the social care provision specified in plans. The Committee has spoken strongly and pretty much with one voice on this, so we will need to return to it on Report. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Children and Families Bill
Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Lord Nash(11 years, 1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, before I respond to the amendments in this group, I should like to say a few words about the intention of the local offer. The Lamb inquiry into special educational needs and parental confidence highlighted how,
“good, honest and open communication … underpinned by written, publicly available information”,
was key to the development of positive working relationships. It emphasised the need for parents to be able to access the information they need, when they need it and in ways that are convenient to them. The Bill responds to that need. The local offer, introduced by Clause 30, has two fundamental purposes: first, to provide clear, comprehensive and accessible information on provision available to support children and young people with SEN and their parents; and, secondly, to help make provision more responsive to local needs. Paragraph 5.1 of the draft SEN code of practice makes this crystal clear.
To be effective, the local offer must be a collaborative venture. We are requiring local authorities and schools, colleges and others providing services to work together in developing it through the duty in Clause 28. Crucially, we are requiring local authorities to involve local parents of children with SEN, and children and young people with SEN, in developing and reviewing the local offer. The local offer should enable local people to see what services are available, how they can be accessed, who provides them and where to go if things do not work out. It will also improve local accountability by making services more transparent and more responsive. I have to say that my discussions with pathfinders have been encouraging in this regard.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, raised the question of disabled children in the local offer. We had a full and helpful debate on disabled children without special educational needs and I gave an undertaking to consider the issue with help from noble Lords. I would be delighted to discuss this further with the noble Lord before Report.
Many noble Lords have spoken to the amendment and Amendment 102, both of which are in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Low, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, and my noble friend Lady Sharp. I would like to address both amendments together. I can assure noble Lords that the local offer will not be a speculative document or wish list—or, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said, an opportunity to be “slippery”. It will not be about what the local authority would like to be available. It will be what the local authority expects will actually be available.
The local authority does not have control of all the services set out in the local offer and can therefore set out only what it expects to be available from these services. This will be based on consultation and collaboration with providers, including schools, post-16 institutions and health providers. If the local offer includes only the support that is currently available, families will not be informed about what provision the local authority expects to become available in the near future, possibly from new innovative practices. We want parents and young people to have confidence in the information in the local offer. We intend the local offer to be robust and effective, and I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Storey for his positive remarks in this regard.
My noble friend Lady Brinton made a passionate case for a strong national framework for the local offer in order to provide constancy. The local offer regulations set out in chapter 5 of the draft code of practice provide that framework in some detail, and we will return to this point.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, talked about minimum standards and setting out duties for the provision of services in the local offer. We will return to these issues later and I will not speak about them now.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, made the point about provision outside a local authority’s area. I agree with him that the local offer should include details on such provision. Clause 30(1)(b) delivers this by requiring a local offer to include provision outside the local authority’s area for children for whom it is responsible.
I am not clear why the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, thinks that the detail being in the code and regulations makes it harder for parents to challenge it. The code is recognised as the Bible for the system—as my noble friend Lord Storey said—and having the information and guidance clearly explained in there will be more accessible to parents than the legal language of the Bill.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, for tabling Amendment 104. The Government currently publish information on local authority expenditure on special educational needs services under Section 251 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 but, as the local offer will include services from a wide range of public, voluntary and private agencies across education, health and social care, it would mean a substantial additional bureaucratic burden for local authorities to collect this funding information. I hope noble Lords will agree that the focus of the local offer should be on the services provided and whether they are responsive to local need. We want that to be the focus of local authorities’ efforts, rather than gathering funding information from a range of other agencies.
Amendment 107—tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Howarth and Lady Massey, and my noble friend Lady Sharp—highlights the importance of ensuring that parents and young people who want support in managing a personal budget know where to find it. I can provide reassurance on the important issue of personal budgets—a key feature of our reforms. Clause 49(7) on personal budgets and Clause 36(9) on assessment would require local authorities to provide information, advice and support in relation to the management of direct payments and the education, health and care assessment plans. Clause 30(1) makes clear that local authorities must include in their local offer sources of information, advice and support for children and young people with SEN and their parents. The code of practice clarifies that this should include information on,
“the option of having a personal budget, who is eligible, how to ask for one and what information, advice and support is available for securing and managing a personal budget”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, asked about support for families in managing personal budgets. Personal budgets can include provision for support in managing them. This can, where needed, include personal assistance and key worker support. Some families in our pathfinder areas report their satisfaction with this aspect of personal budgets. I have a quote here: through a personal budget someone’s 11 year-old son,
“has been able to swim and have a PA to attend social activities … with his classmates, doing things that ordinary”,
11 year-olds “take for granted”. I had a conversation with a pathfinder on this issue, the help they were getting from a PA and how that had changed substantially the mother’s life.
The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, made the point about including education for life. Of course, we expect the local offer to include information about educational provision in the broadest sense. The code specifies that this must include information about support in preparing for adulthood and other transitions, as well as the support provided by schools and the universal and specialist services.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for tabling Amendment 110. The local offer covers a wide range of public, private and voluntary organisations. These will vary from area to area. Subjecting these agencies to a legal duty may inhibit their involvement when we want the local offer to be as comprehensive as possible and include the full range of services that can support children and young people with SEN and their parents. The local offer will improve accountability of local services in three key ways: first, children and young people with SEN and their parents will be directly involved in developing and reviewing it; secondly, it will make clear how and where they complain or appeal where they are unhappy with their support; and thirdly, regulations will require local authorities to publish comments from children and young people with SEN and their parents on the local offer, including comments on the quality of the provision available and its response to them. These requirements will give a strong impetus to local authorities and those providing support to respond to local needs. In view of this, I do not believe further duties are necessary.
I hope I have reassured noble Lords that these amendments are not necessary and that noble Lords feel able to withdraw them.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have spoken and to the Minister for his comprehensive reply. This is the first of a number of groups of amendments that deal with the local offer. It is clear that the concept of the local offer has given rise to a good deal of concern on the part of parents and professionals. Noble Lords have already had a lot of points to make about it, and clearly there will be a lot more. I do not propose to say much more about it now, because there is a good deal of this debate still to go, and I imagine that we may well want to come back to something more focused on Report.
I just note one observation that the Minister made. I was glad to hear him say that he would be happy to meet us on the question of whether local offers could extend to disabled children as well as those with special educational needs. That is a welcome sign of movement on the part of the Government and holds out the hope that we may be able to get closer together on that issue. I very much welcome that and appreciate the Minister’s having said it. He will not find us at all unready to take up that offer.
In order that we get on to the debates which are to ensue on later groups, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Children and Families Bill
Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Lord Nash(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, this has been quite a long debate. We have been going for nearly a couple of hours. It has been a very wide-ranging debate. I have not totted up the number of amendments that have been spoken to, but it seems to be 10 or a dozen. I am sure that at this advanced stage in the Committee’s deliberations this afternoon, your Lordships would not want me to make a full response on all the amendments that have been spoken to and to which the Minister has responded. I am not quite sure whether that is my role or whether I should simply respond to my own amendment, although I will not do even that in any detail. A lot of observations have been made and the Minister has responded. I believe that we all will want to read what everyone has said and what the Minister said in his response to this wide-ranging debate. Then we will know to what extent we want to focus on issues on Report. Certainly, a great many issues have been raised and I am sure that we will wish to return to some of them after having read and reflected on this debate. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Nash
We do not accept it. We feel that we deal with it in the provisions that I have mentioned. I will be happy to discuss this further.
Inclusive and accessible provision is clearly an issue that many noble Lords feel strongly about and have genuine concerns. I hope that I have explained how the Government are approaching the issue and the steps that we are taking. As I said at the beginning of my response, I welcome the opportunity to meet noble Lords and will be happy to do so further on this point. In view of what I have said, though, I would be grateful if the noble Lord could withdraw his amendments.
Lord Low of Dalston
I am grateful to all those who have spoken unanimously in support of these amendments. I am particularly grateful to the Minister for his painstaking and comprehensive response. However, I am slightly reminded of a meeting that we had with DfE officials, before the Minister’s time, when after the meeting I said to someone, “How do you think that went?”, and he said, “Well, I think they agreed with everything we said provided it didn’t mean they had to change the Bill”.
I acknowledge straight away that we are in the same place, including the Minister and those on this side of the Table, in our support for the principle of inclusion, and that is a good thing. The Minister ran through a large number of measures that the Government are taking in support of the principle of inclusion, some of them legal and some of them other forms of support. I am inclined to regard them as what you might call “soft” measures—soft support for inclusion. However, the Minister wanted to steer away from anchoring the principle too firmly in hard law in the Bill. We were not seeking law that was too hard; the JCHR’s amendment is couched in terms of general principle and is not very coercive.
Amendment 157B simply seeks to achieve a common approach between the unsuitability limbs and the incompatibility limb by applying the “reasonable steps” obligation in relation to both of them. It is incontestable that both ought to be approached in the same way; it does not make sense to have a “reasonable steps” operation in relation to one but not the other. That is the position at the moment and we have an opportunity to put it right. There cannot be an objection to having a “reasonable steps” obligation at all in the legislation because it is there at the moment. What is wrong with the legislation is it is there in relation to one ground of objection but not the other; it seems only sensible to apply it to both. Then there is Amendment 219, which, as we have heard, is more wide-ranging.
I should not overlook the fact that the Minister made some reference to anchoring the principle of inclusion in legal form in the legislation, but it took the form of schools using their best endeavours. My heart sank a bit at that point, because it seemed to take us back to the Education Act 1981, which made the first tentative steps in legislation towards enshrining the principle of inclusion in legislation. There it was enshrined in terms of schools and authorities using their best endeavours. As the Minister made clear, we have moved on a bit since then, so to offer a best endeavours provision as a consolation prize for us in tabling these amendments is a bit disappointing.
However, I am grateful to the Minister for his offer to meet us to have discussions on these issues before Report. I am sure that we are all in the same place in wanting some clear recognition of inclusion in the legislation, and I hope that by a process of discussion we can come to agreement on a form in which to enshrine that in the legislation. On that basis, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment this evening.